All Blacks 2023
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Our inability to put any heat on the French lineout was as big a contributing factor to the territory stat as the kicking. Add in ours was a bit ropey, and in a game dominated by kicking you're in trouble.
If we can't get the ball back from our kicks, or we can't attack the opposition lineout, then we are going to play a fuck load of football at our own end
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@canefan said in All Blacks 2023:
@Kiwiwomble said in All Blacks 2023:
we have some injuries....but it doesnt seem like a crazy amount, not 2-3 in the same position like 2011....it feels like we should still be operating in the realm of things that should / could haven't been planned for
Kane adds significant steel to the pack, his omission triggered some juggling of the forwards that didn't work. JB is our number one 12 and the rock of the backline, the drop off to the rest is huge. Lomax is a big loss in the scrums and he is good with ball in hand.
It’s not cricket season yet
@MN5 said in All Blacks 2023:
@canefan said in All Blacks 2023:
@Kiwiwomble said in All Blacks 2023:
we have some injuries....but it doesnt seem like a crazy amount, not 2-3 in the same position like 2011....it feels like we should still be operating in the realm of things that should / could haven't been planned for
Kane adds significant steel to the pack, his omission triggered some juggling of the forwards that didn't work. JB is our number one 12 and the rock of the backline, the drop off to the rest is huge. Lomax is a big loss in the scrums and he is good with ball in hand.
It’s not cricket season yet
No one likes a pidant mate
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@Kiwiwomble said in All Blacks 2023:
we have some injuries....but it doesnt seem like a crazy amount, not 2-3 in the same position like 2011....it feels like we should still be operating in the realm of things that should / could haven't been planned for
Kane adds significant steel to the pack, his omission triggered some juggling of the forwards that didn't work. JB is our number one 12 and the rock of the backline, the drop off to the rest is huge. Lomax is a big loss in the scrums and he is good with ball in hand.
@canefan said in All Blacks 2023:
@Kiwiwomble said in All Blacks 2023:
we have some injuries....but it doesnt seem like a crazy amount, not 2-3 in the same position like 2011....it feels like we should still be operating in the realm of things that should / could haven't been planned for
Kane adds significant steel to the pack, his omission triggered some juggling of the forwards that didn't work. JB is our number one 12 and the rock of the backline, the drop off to the rest is huge. Lomax is a big loss in the scrums and he is good with ball in hand.
I get why those guys are starters....but lomax and JB only really locked in their positions last year, combined with Cane having some decent runs of injury
its pretty damning the the drop off is so big that it causes these problems, and that is doesnt feel like its been planned for....and how late we were really landing on our starters
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@canefan said in All Blacks 2023:
@Kiwiwomble said in All Blacks 2023:
we have some injuries....but it doesnt seem like a crazy amount, not 2-3 in the same position like 2011....it feels like we should still be operating in the realm of things that should / could haven't been planned for
Kane adds significant steel to the pack, his omission triggered some juggling of the forwards that didn't work. JB is our number one 12 and the rock of the backline, the drop off to the rest is huge. Lomax is a big loss in the scrums and he is good with ball in hand.
I get why those guys are starters....but lomax and JB only really locked in their positions last year, combined with Cane having some decent runs of injury
its pretty damning the the drop off is so big that it causes these problems, and that is doesnt feel like its been planned for....and how late we were really landing on our starters
@Kiwiwomble said in All Blacks 2023:
@canefan said in All Blacks 2023:
@Kiwiwomble said in All Blacks 2023:
we have some injuries....but it doesnt seem like a crazy amount, not 2-3 in the same position like 2011....it feels like we should still be operating in the realm of things that should / could haven't been planned for
Kane adds significant steel to the pack, his omission triggered some juggling of the forwards that didn't work. JB is our number one 12 and the rock of the backline, the drop off to the rest is huge. Lomax is a big loss in the scrums and he is good with ball in hand.
I get why those guys are starters....but lomax and JB only really locked in their positions last year, combined with Cane having some decent runs of injury
its pretty damning the the drop off is so big that it causes these problems, and that is doesnt feel like its been planned for....and how late we were really landing on our starters
It's well documented that JB only got a chance because the others were hurt. Foster spent a ridiculous amount of time persisting with players who aren't good enough at the expense of finding some that are good enough
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@Kiwiwomble said in All Blacks 2023:
@canefan said in All Blacks 2023:
@Kiwiwomble said in All Blacks 2023:
we have some injuries....but it doesnt seem like a crazy amount, not 2-3 in the same position like 2011....it feels like we should still be operating in the realm of things that should / could haven't been planned for
Kane adds significant steel to the pack, his omission triggered some juggling of the forwards that didn't work. JB is our number one 12 and the rock of the backline, the drop off to the rest is huge. Lomax is a big loss in the scrums and he is good with ball in hand.
I get why those guys are starters....but lomax and JB only really locked in their positions last year, combined with Cane having some decent runs of injury
its pretty damning the the drop off is so big that it causes these problems, and that is doesnt feel like its been planned for....and how late we were really landing on our starters
It's well documented that JB only got a chance because the others were hurt. Foster spent a ridiculous amount of time persisting with players who aren't good enough at the expense of finding some that are good enough
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@canefan thats what im saying...fozzie is clueless
@Kiwiwomble said in All Blacks 2023:
@canefan thats what im saying...fozzie is clueless
I concur mate. It's been a shit show
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Our inability to put any heat on the French lineout was as big a contributing factor to the territory stat as the kicking. Add in ours was a bit ropey, and in a game dominated by kicking you're in trouble.
If we can't get the ball back from our kicks, or we can't attack the opposition lineout, then we are going to play a fuck load of football at our own end
@mariner4life given most rugby we watch at present, lineouts are the more frequent set peice restart than scrums, having a functioning lineout becomes more crucial, particularly one that can pressure the opposition lineout.
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@frugby said in All Blacks 2023:
@Bovidae said in All Blacks 2023:
You can argue that it was going to be a gamble playing Papalii at 6 too. It would have been interesting to see how that went, but we'll never know now. Foster and Ryan had 24 h to decide who would replace Cane, so I am assuming they discussed all options.
What confuses me, is if they really felt Papalii/Vaa'i are better options at 6 then Jacobson, why not give them a run there in the starting side v the Boks... and then the reverse argument, what was it they saw in 35 minutes from Jacobson, made them think he was really that poor an option.
The selections with Jacobson have been odd, it's like they don't rate him, yet chose to pick him, despite having more faith in the likes of Akira Ioane. Not sure if they are trying to send a message or what, but it is all very odd for me. Jacobson isn't an eye-catching player, but he is a tough bastard who will do the hard yards. I don't know what evidence they saw that Vaa'i was their man to run 6.
It was obviously very poor selecting to pick five wings and five loose forwards, when they knew Retallick was injured. Everyone said it at the time and everyone has been proven correct now that Blackadder has replaced Narawa. However, now we've pretty much got the team they should have picked in the first place (they could have picked Finau) - and Ethan has had some NPC games.
I think they picked Vaa'i to give themselves three specialist lineout jumpers. The Jaapies took our lineout apart towards the end of our warm up when we only had two rookie specialist jumpers, and that's why we need either Frizell or SBarrett at 6. I presume they want SBarrett's power in the scrums, so they put Vaa'i at 6 and hoped.
Jacobsen is really their reserve 8 who can play 6 at a pinch, but he's not really a genuine lineout option at test level.
@Chris-B said in All Blacks 2023:
Jacobsen is really their reserve 8 who can play 6 at a pinch, but he's not really a genuine lineout option at test level.
Yes, Jacobson is Savea's backup as there are no other no.8s in the squad. I don't include Frizell as a genuine option there. The fact that Foster justified Blackadder's selection over Finau or whoever by saying he provided 6/7 cover says he isn't either. They could/should have covered all loose forward positions (starter/backup) with a sixth loose forward.
As to the lineout, Blackadder is no better than Savea or Jacobson as a lineout option. They can all do a job but aren't a du Toit or Ollivon in height.
Has anyone seen the lineout targets used in the French test? ESPN has a meaningless lineout won stat which is who threw the ball in, not who won it.
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@Chris-B said in All Blacks 2023:
Jacobsen is really their reserve 8 who can play 6 at a pinch, but he's not really a genuine lineout option at test level.
Yes, Jacobson is Savea's backup as there are no other no.8s in the squad. I don't include Frizell as a genuine option there. The fact that Foster justified Blackadder's selection over Finau or whoever by saying he provided 6/7 cover says he isn't either. They could/should have covered all loose forward positions (starter/backup) with a sixth loose forward.
As to the lineout, Blackadder is no better than Savea or Jacobson as a lineout option. They can all do a job but aren't a du Toit or Ollivon in height.
Has anyone seen the lineout targets used in the French test? ESPN has a meaningless lineout won stat which is who threw the ball in, not who won it.
@Bovidae said in All Blacks 2023:
@Chris-B said in All Blacks 2023:
Jacobsen is really their reserve 8 who can play 6 at a pinch, but he's not really a genuine lineout option at test level.
Yes, Jacobson is Savea's backup as there are no other no.8s in the squad. I don't include Frizell as a genuine option there. The fact that Foster justified Blackadder's selection over Finau or whoever by saying he provided 6/7 cover says he isn't either. They could/should have covered all loose forward positions (starter/backup) with a sixth loose forward.
As to the lineout, Blackadder is no better than Savea or Jacobson as a lineout option. They can all do a job but aren't a du Toit or Ollivon in height.
Has anyone seen the lineout targets used in the French test? ESPN has a meaningless lineout won stat which is who threw the ball in, not who won it.
I think them not starting Jacobson is really telling. They should have either (1) played Vaii at lock and Barrett at 6, or (2) Jacobson at 6. It can't be good for moral to be benched after only getting 30 odd minuted against SA when he wasn't the issue.
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@Chris-B said in All Blacks 2023:
Jacobsen is really their reserve 8 who can play 6 at a pinch, but he's not really a genuine lineout option at test level.
Yes, Jacobson is Savea's backup as there are no other no.8s in the squad. I don't include Frizell as a genuine option there. The fact that Foster justified Blackadder's selection over Finau or whoever by saying he provided 6/7 cover says he isn't either. They could/should have covered all loose forward positions (starter/backup) with a sixth loose forward.
As to the lineout, Blackadder is no better than Savea or Jacobson as a lineout option. They can all do a job but aren't a du Toit or Ollivon in height.
Has anyone seen the lineout targets used in the French test? ESPN has a meaningless lineout won stat which is who threw the ball in, not who won it.
@Bovidae said in All Blacks 2023:
Has anyone seen the lineout targets used in the French test? ESPN has a meaningless lineout won stat which is who threw the ball in, not who won it.
This stat is called 'lineout won own throw'
3 Sam Whitelock
2 Scott Barrett
2 Beauden Barrett
2 Brodie Retallick
1 Ardie SaveaNZ didn't get any from the French throw. The two BB takes must be from quick throws
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@Bovidae said in All Blacks 2023:
Has anyone seen the lineout targets used in the French test? ESPN has a meaningless lineout won stat which is who threw the ball in, not who won it.
This stat is called 'lineout won own throw'
3 Sam Whitelock
2 Scott Barrett
2 Beauden Barrett
2 Brodie Retallick
1 Ardie SaveaNZ didn't get any from the French throw. The two BB takes must be from quick throws
@Duluth NZ weren’t even close to winning or disrupting a French line out. Not a surprise when France had 5 line out options and their flankers were being used as lifters.
French and Irish line outs are as good as you get at the moment. Honourable mention to SA, but I think you can get at them at times if you are prepared to chance your arm rather than defend the maul.
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@Duluth NZ weren’t even close to winning or disrupting a French line out. Not a surprise when France had 5 line out options and their flankers were being used as lifters.
French and Irish line outs are as good as you get at the moment. Honourable mention to SA, but I think you can get at them at times if you are prepared to chance your arm rather than defend the maul.
@stodders said in All Blacks 2023:
@Duluth NZ weren’t even close to winning or disrupting a French line out. Not a surprise when France had 5 line out options and their flankers were being used as lifters.
French and Irish line outs are as good as you get at the moment. Honourable mention to SA, but I think you can get at them at times if you are prepared to chance your arm rather than defend the maul.
I think that is wrong, we sent up two jumpers when they had a 5 metre line out and disrupted their ball, even if we didn't win it. They couldn't get their maul game going as a result, I think that is the tactic for us to use.
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I've been wondering why they never really looked at Harmon. What isn't test quality about him? All over the park, great leader, never gives up, great rugby sense as far as I can tell. That 6 7 8 combo Mariner outlined definitely has some positives-I just feel they (maybe Ryan) refuses to look at Akira.
@nostrildamus said in All Blacks 2023:
I've been wondering why they never really looked at Harmon. What isn't test quality about him? All over the park, great leader, never gives up, great rugby sense as far as I can tell. That 6 7 8 combo Mariner outlined definitely has some positives-I just feel they (maybe Ryan) refuses to look at Akira.
We don't seem interested in picking genuine 7s these days. Not in the tackle and fetch sense anyway. Otherwise Harmon, Christie and Boshier would all be talked about a bit more.
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@stodders said in All Blacks 2023:
@Duluth NZ weren’t even close to winning or disrupting a French line out. Not a surprise when France had 5 line out options and their flankers were being used as lifters.
French and Irish line outs are as good as you get at the moment. Honourable mention to SA, but I think you can get at them at times if you are prepared to chance your arm rather than defend the maul.
I think that is wrong, we sent up two jumpers when they had a 5 metre line out and disrupted their ball, even if we didn't win it. They couldn't get their maul game going as a result, I think that is the tactic for us to use.
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@Bovidae said in All Blacks 2023:
Has anyone seen the lineout targets used in the French test? ESPN has a meaningless lineout won stat which is who threw the ball in, not who won it.
This stat is called 'lineout won own throw'
3 Sam Whitelock
2 Scott Barrett
2 Beauden Barrett
2 Brodie Retallick
1 Ardie SaveaNZ didn't get any from the French throw. The two BB takes must be from quick throws
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@nostrildamus said in All Blacks 2023:
I've been wondering why they never really looked at Harmon. What isn't test quality about him? All over the park, great leader, never gives up, great rugby sense as far as I can tell. That 6 7 8 combo Mariner outlined definitely has some positives-I just feel they (maybe Ryan) refuses to look at Akira.
We don't seem interested in picking genuine 7s these days. Not in the tackle and fetch sense anyway. Otherwise Harmon, Christie and Boshier would all be talked about a bit more.
@mooshld said in All Blacks 2023:
@nostrildamus said in All Blacks 2023:
I've been wondering why they never really looked at Harmon. What isn't test quality about him? All over the park, great leader, never gives up, great rugby sense as far as I can tell. That 6 7 8 combo Mariner outlined definitely has some positives-I just feel they (maybe Ryan) refuses to look at Akira.
We don't seem interested in picking genuine 7s these days. Not in the tackle and fetch sense anyway. Otherwise Harmon, Christie and Boshier would all be talked about a bit more.
I agree, there's no such thing as an openside anymore.
There's no role like a Mourie, Hobbs or Kronfeld, and hasn't been for years.
Even McCaw didn't play like we all understood a 7 played "traditionally". Well, maybe he did early in his career, but more recently there are just "looseforwards".
Which is why I think all our best loose forwards are slightly smaller. All openside sized.
Would like to see us develop some nearly lock sized critters playing in the loosies at 6 and 8.
This is a longer term project though. We're stuck with what we've got for now.
I know what I mean but am not sure I'm expressing it correctly.
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@mooshld said in All Blacks 2023:
@nostrildamus said in All Blacks 2023:
I've been wondering why they never really looked at Harmon. What isn't test quality about him? All over the park, great leader, never gives up, great rugby sense as far as I can tell. That 6 7 8 combo Mariner outlined definitely has some positives-I just feel they (maybe Ryan) refuses to look at Akira.
We don't seem interested in picking genuine 7s these days. Not in the tackle and fetch sense anyway. Otherwise Harmon, Christie and Boshier would all be talked about a bit more.
I agree, there's no such thing as an openside anymore.
There's no role like a Mourie, Hobbs or Kronfeld, and hasn't been for years.
Even McCaw didn't play like we all understood a 7 played "traditionally". Well, maybe he did early in his career, but more recently there are just "looseforwards".
Which is why I think all our best loose forwards are slightly smaller. All openside sized.
Would like to see us develop some nearly lock sized critters playing in the loosies at 6 and 8.
This is a longer term project though. We're stuck with what we've got for now.
I know what I mean but am not sure I'm expressing it correctly.
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I think we're missing the type of player that 2021-version Hoskins Sotutu was threatening to turn into, but hasn't quite become.
@Donsteppa quite difficult to do when you aren’t allowed to learn from your mistakes and develop over a period of time.
ABs need the ABs XV to provide these types of opportunities to players with potential who aren’t quite AB level yet.
