All Blacks 2023
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@Chris said in All Blacks 2023:
So Barrett is only shit because the structures of every team he plays for,It seems to be there is a common theme,Barrett is now not playing well .
I'm posing it as a question... to me, the question is, do we think Barrett could go from being the best player in the world, to being in his current form so quickly, even accounting for age and the head knocks. To me it seems unlikely?
@frugby said in All Blacks 2023:
@Chris said in All Blacks 2023:
So Barrett is only shit because the structures of every team he plays for,It seems to be there is a common theme,Barrett is now not playing well .
I'm posing it as a question... to me, the question is, do we think Barrett could go from being the best player in the world, to being in his current form so quickly, even accounting for age and the head knocks. To me it seems unlikely?
it's not quickly mate. he was world player of the year in 2017.
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Gameplan should come first. Whether built around players or other factors, picking all the players before working out the gameplan doesn't tend to work well.
A great example of this was the Lions, who realised that if they start running it rather than going for classical South African methods, other teams would struggle to keep up at altitude. Did they have gun players? The best in the competition? Not really, sure they had some good weapons, but more importantly, they had a gameplan built around a specific principle, where the players were then picked to play that way.
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@frugby said in All Blacks 2023:
@MN5 said in All Blacks 2023:
@frugby said in All Blacks 2023:
Is it fair to criticise both Barrett and Foster? If we agree the tactics are shite, then I think it is reasonable to say that Barrett might not look shit under Razor for example.
For all the improvements in the Blues, one of the big critiques, particularly this year, was that they rely on the individual brilliance of a couple of backs (generally Rieko and Telea), so could argue he has been victim of playing in poorly set-up sides.
It is also possible, granted that age/the head knocks have caught up with him, but at his scintillating best, he was considered to be the best player in the world, and that wasn't as a bench player, that was as a world-class first five.
He is only 32, so not exactly over the hill. Having seen the renaissance of Shaun Johnson for the Warriors this year, playing in a good, coherent structure, is it unreasonable to suggest that under Razor, we could have seen a similar revival from Barrett? We will likely never know the answer, but I find it hard to believe Barrett became shit overnight.
It didn’t happen overnight but it did happen
I guess what I'm really saying though, is there are many players, across many sports, including rugby, who people have written off, suggesting they have turned to mud, then all of a sudden, under a new coach, they look a million bucks again - SJ being a great example.
Maybe, but with BB it used to be his extreme pace which got him out of trouble and made him look a million bucks.
I can’t see that coming back.
@MN5 said in All Blacks 2023:
@frugby said in All Blacks 2023:
@MN5 said in All Blacks 2023:
@frugby said in All Blacks 2023:
Is it fair to criticise both Barrett and Foster? If we agree the tactics are shite, then I think it is reasonable to say that Barrett might not look shit under Razor for example.
For all the improvements in the Blues, one of the big critiques, particularly this year, was that they rely on the individual brilliance of a couple of backs (generally Rieko and Telea), so could argue he has been victim of playing in poorly set-up sides.
It is also possible, granted that age/the head knocks have caught up with him, but at his scintillating best, he was considered to be the best player in the world, and that wasn't as a bench player, that was as a world-class first five.
He is only 32, so not exactly over the hill. Having seen the renaissance of Shaun Johnson for the Warriors this year, playing in a good, coherent structure, is it unreasonable to suggest that under Razor, we could have seen a similar revival from Barrett? We will likely never know the answer, but I find it hard to believe Barrett became shit overnight.
It didn’t happen overnight but it did happen
I guess what I'm really saying though, is there are many players, across many sports, including rugby, who people have written off, suggesting they have turned to mud, then all of a sudden, under a new coach, they look a million bucks again - SJ being a great example.
Maybe, but with BB it used to be his extreme pace which got him out of trouble and made him look a million bucks.
I can’t see that coming back.
He saved a possible try when he turned around and chased down that Frog kick ahead. Doesn't suggest he lost any pace. But he certainly is gun shy. He used to explode into the line and look dangerous from almost anywhere, but now he very rarely goes for it. Ultimately that was his strength and what made him lethal. He never was a traditional A4 player and it makes no sense to try and make him one. But Foster and logic don't generally mix.
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@MN5 said in All Blacks 2023:
@frugby said in All Blacks 2023:
@MN5 said in All Blacks 2023:
@frugby said in All Blacks 2023:
Is it fair to criticise both Barrett and Foster? If we agree the tactics are shite, then I think it is reasonable to say that Barrett might not look shit under Razor for example.
For all the improvements in the Blues, one of the big critiques, particularly this year, was that they rely on the individual brilliance of a couple of backs (generally Rieko and Telea), so could argue he has been victim of playing in poorly set-up sides.
It is also possible, granted that age/the head knocks have caught up with him, but at his scintillating best, he was considered to be the best player in the world, and that wasn't as a bench player, that was as a world-class first five.
He is only 32, so not exactly over the hill. Having seen the renaissance of Shaun Johnson for the Warriors this year, playing in a good, coherent structure, is it unreasonable to suggest that under Razor, we could have seen a similar revival from Barrett? We will likely never know the answer, but I find it hard to believe Barrett became shit overnight.
It didn’t happen overnight but it did happen
I guess what I'm really saying though, is there are many players, across many sports, including rugby, who people have written off, suggesting they have turned to mud, then all of a sudden, under a new coach, they look a million bucks again - SJ being a great example.
Maybe, but with BB it used to be his extreme pace which got him out of trouble and made him look a million bucks.
I can’t see that coming back.
He saved a possible try when he turned around and chased down that Frog kick ahead. Doesn't suggest he lost any pace. But he certainly is gun shy. He used to explode into the line and look dangerous from almost anywhere, but now he very rarely goes for it. Ultimately that was his strength and what made him lethal. He never was a traditional A4 player and it makes no sense to try and make him one. But Foster and logic don't generally mix.
@Rancid-Schnitzel nicely put. He started showing this in 2019 for the Hurricanes, I remember the Canes had a backline geared for running rugby and all Beauden did was kick, kick, kick. Then he took that same mentality onto the Blues and he's been doing it ever since. Maybe lost his confidence somewhere along the line but from seasons 2015-2017 he was notably one of the best runners of the rugby ball going around.
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@Rancid-Schnitzel nicely put. He started showing this in 2019 for the Hurricanes, I remember the Canes had a backline geared for running rugby and all Beauden did was kick, kick, kick. Then he took that same mentality onto the Blues and he's been doing it ever since. Maybe lost his confidence somewhere along the line but from seasons 2015-2017 he was notably one of the best runners of the rugby ball going around.
@Canes4life said in All Blacks 2023:
@Rancid-Schnitzel nicely put. He started showing this in 2019 for the Hurricanes, I remember the Canes had a backline geared for running rugby and all Beauden did was kick, kick, kick. Then he took that same mentality onto the Blues and he's been doing it ever since. Maybe lost his confidence somewhere along the line but from seasons 2015-2017 he was notably one of the best runners of the rugby ball going around.
He was absolutely phenomenal then, but it's almost as if a switch was flicked. He never really went back to playing that way. The speed and skills were still there, but it seems his mindset or instincts completely changed.
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It looks like Frizzell, Jordie Barrett and Lomax are all still broken. Will any of them be available for Italy? Are they all going to be available for the Quarter Final (if the ABs get there)?
@sparky said in All Blacks 2023:
It looks like Frizzell, Jordie Barrett and Lomax are all still broken. Will any of them be available for Italy? Are they all going to be available for the Quarter Final (if the ABs get there)?
Jordie yes, they're being cautious. Not sure about the official word about the other two
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@sparky said in All Blacks 2023:
It looks like Frizzell, Jordie Barrett and Lomax are all still broken. Will any of them be available for Italy? Are they all going to be available for the Quarter Final (if the ABs get there)?
Jordie yes, they're being cautious. Not sure about the official word about the other two
@Machpants said in All Blacks 2023:
@sparky said in All Blacks 2023:
It looks like Frizzell, Jordie Barrett and Lomax are all still broken. Will any of them be available for Italy? Are they all going to be available for the Quarter Final (if the ABs get there)?
Jordie yes, they're being cautious. Not sure about the official word about the other two
Just chuck them in a quarter final with massive pressure. What could go wrong ?
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@Machpants said in All Blacks 2023:
@sparky said in All Blacks 2023:
It looks like Frizzell, Jordie Barrett and Lomax are all still broken. Will any of them be available for Italy? Are they all going to be available for the Quarter Final (if the ABs get there)?
Jordie yes, they're being cautious. Not sure about the official word about the other two
Just chuck them in a quarter final with massive pressure. What could go wrong ?
@MN5 its fine...we've been planning this the whole time...
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Jordie is about 6 foot 6, that is a lot of frame his knees are bearing..I'm concerned.
@nostrildamus said in All Blacks 2023:
Jordie is about 6 foot 6, that is a lot of frame his knees are bearing..I'm concerned.
I think a knee injury is a knee injury no matter what
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we should stop stressing....i cant see any problem going into knock out games with players like bb and savea having played every test this year and 4 other blokes coming back from injury
@Kiwiwomble said in All Blacks 2023:
we should stop stressing....i cant see any problem going into knock out games with players like bb and savea having playered every test this year and 4 other blokes coming back from injury
Even if that doesn’t work out impact subs like Christie and Havili will come on and change the tide in our favour
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@nostrildamus said in All Blacks 2023:
Jordie is about 6 foot 6, that is a lot of frame his knees are bearing..I'm concerned.
I think a knee injury is a knee injury no matter what
@MN5 said in All Blacks 2023:
@nostrildamus said in All Blacks 2023:
Jordie is about 6 foot 6, that is a lot of frame his knees are bearing..I'm concerned.
I think a knee injury is a knee injury no matter what
I think it is quite a serious injury and our cupboard at 12 is um...not great.
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@MN5 said in All Blacks 2023:
@nostrildamus said in All Blacks 2023:
Jordie is about 6 foot 6, that is a lot of frame his knees are bearing..I'm concerned.
I think a knee injury is a knee injury no matter what
I think it is quite a serious injury and our cupboard at 12 is um...not great.
@nostrildamus said in All Blacks 2023:
@MN5 said in All Blacks 2023:
@nostrildamus said in All Blacks 2023:
Jordie is about 6 foot 6, that is a lot of frame his knees are bearing..I'm concerned.
I think a knee injury is a knee injury no matter what
I think it is quite a serious injury and our cupboard at 12 is um...not great.
Yeah that’s my point. five foot six or seven foot six…..does it matter ?
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@Kiwiwomble said in All Blacks 2023:
we should stop stressing....i cant see any problem going into knock out games with players like bb and savea having playered every test this year and 4 other blokes coming back from injury
Even if that doesn’t work out impact subs like Christie and Havili will come on and change the tide in our favour
@MN5 said in All Blacks 2023:
@Kiwiwomble said in All Blacks 2023:
we should stop stressing....i cant see any problem going into knock out games with players like bb and savea having playered every test this year and 4 other blokes coming back from injury
Even if that doesn’t work out impact subs like Christie and Havili will come on and change the tide in our favour
even better
just realised ive been saying 4 guys being BBBR, Frizell, Lomax and JB....didn't even think about Cane
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how often has the BB at 15 and RM at 10 combo worked? I recall one game I think it went well, just trying to remember the others. If it is a winning tactic, it should be established by now given how long they have played there?
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@Rancid-Schnitzel nicely put. He started showing this in 2019 for the Hurricanes, I remember the Canes had a backline geared for running rugby and all Beauden did was kick, kick, kick. Then he took that same mentality onto the Blues and he's been doing it ever since. Maybe lost his confidence somewhere along the line but from seasons 2015-2017 he was notably one of the best runners of the rugby ball going around.
@Canes4life said in All Blacks 2023:
@Rancid-Schnitzel nicely put. He started showing this in 2019 for the Hurricanes, I remember the Canes had a backline geared for running rugby and all Beauden did was kick, kick, kick. Then he took that same mentality onto the Blues and he's been doing it ever since. Maybe lost his confidence somewhere along the line but from seasons 2015-2017 he was notably one of the best runners of the rugby ball going around.
Was the rush defence as prevalent in 2015-2017?
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@Canes4life said in All Blacks 2023:
@Rancid-Schnitzel nicely put. He started showing this in 2019 for the Hurricanes, I remember the Canes had a backline geared for running rugby and all Beauden did was kick, kick, kick. Then he took that same mentality onto the Blues and he's been doing it ever since. Maybe lost his confidence somewhere along the line but from seasons 2015-2017 he was notably one of the best runners of the rugby ball going around.
Was the rush defence as prevalent in 2015-2017?
@pakman the rush defense was definitely a thing because that's pretty much how the Canes won their 2016 title. Lead by Cory Jane and Matt Proctor the Canes came up with a rush defense structure that didn't concede a try through the playoffs.
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@frugby said in All Blacks 2023:
also this dispels the myth that Barrett is at first receiver 60% of the time lol.
No it doesn't Mounga handled the ball a lot at the back as he dropped back when Barrett went to first receiver
Stats do not tell you the whole picture at all.
If you go by stats totally you get painted a different picture than what happened,
Every Stat is in a particular situation that does not give the full story,Watching the game gives you much more.@Chris said in All Blacks 2023:
Mounga handled the ball a lot at the back as he dropped back when Barrett went to first receiver
Would that perhaps suggest Barrett was at "first defender" if Mounga was receiving the ball at the back? i.e., they had the ball and were kicking it?
