Highlanders 2025
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We are like a kid who gets a new toy. Our new toys are players who get selected in national U20 squads. They must immediately be picked. Which means we miss out on some of the slower burn players.
It is happening around the country not just with us. It is just more visible where we have a lack of depth.
@frugby and I have some differing views on players. But generally the theme around filing up spots with under prepared players rings true.
The pathway of a year out of high school, NZ U20s and Super isn't sustainable for every player.
There are several guys I am concerned about. Josh Whaanga is the biggest one in my book. I can see a situation. Where he just gets scraped. Same with Te Hiwi, who is a tank of a bloke. A lot of other franchises have you blokes in and around squads for three years before they properly start. It looks like at times we have a sink or swim philosophy at 21.
Your lads like Blair Ryall, Tosi, Moorby, Tupou (real Southland theme there) we have missed out on they have gone and played well elsewhere.
And a slight glance at your 27 squad. Shaun Kempton should hopefully be there too. As long as he can get to size. That kid is a freak.
@SouthernMann said in Highlanders 2025:
There are several guys I am concerned about. Josh Whaanga is the biggest one in my book. I can see a situation. Where he just gets scraped. Same with Te Hiwi, who is a tank of a bloke. A lot of other franchises have you blokes in and around squads for three years before they properly start. It looks like at times we have a sink or swim philosophy at 21.
Definitely a balance to be struck. Whaanga I don’t really think is in selection consideration this season, will get a better view on him in time. I think part of the sink or swim is down to the fact that guys like Te Hiwi for example were never that good in the first place (Poor talent ID). Umaga-Jensen for example, took several years to finally crack it, but when he was the same age, there was clear signs.
Your lads like Blair Ryall, Tosi, Moorby, Tupou (real Southland theme there) we have missed out on they have gone and played well elsewhere.
Can’t blame ourselves for Tosi I don’t think… Moorby and Tupou Taieloa though we have shot ourselves in the foot
And a slight glance at your 27 squad. Shaun Kempton should hopefully be there too. As long as he can get to size. That kid is a freak.
Hooker could be a real test of this regime. Do you back local or do you go for the best in class? Kempton to me is another Taylor. Good eye-catching skills, but lacks the out and out grunt of his peers. Bell is the opposite, does the grunt, but not the flashy stuff. Vikena is somewhere in the middle, and is definitely worth persisting with. Considering the logjam up the road, we’d be dumb not to enquire about Ouderyn. FWIW, if we can't get a real star like that, I'd stick rather than twisting.
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@SouthernMann said in Highlanders 2025:
There are several guys I am concerned about. Josh Whaanga is the biggest one in my book. I can see a situation. Where he just gets scraped. Same with Te Hiwi, who is a tank of a bloke. A lot of other franchises have you blokes in and around squads for three years before they properly start. It looks like at times we have a sink or swim philosophy at 21.
What makes you concerned about Josh Whaanga to the point he gets scraped? It’s his first year in the squad as a fully contracted player and has just turned 21 last month… you aren’t exactly going to throw him to the wolves when there are TUJ and Tele’a ahead of him at 13 along with Tangitau in 14 doing good jobs.
You compare other squads having players around for three years before they properly start, perhaps that is the approach with Whaanga.
He took steps forward last year in the NPC and I expect that to continue again this NPC season. Next year we can expect to see some of him in super. From everything I’ve been hearing they are very happy with how he is progressing and maturing.
@Landers92 said in Highlanders 2025:
@SouthernMann said in Highlanders 2025:
There are several guys I am concerned about. Josh Whaanga is the biggest one in my book. I can see a situation. Where he just gets scraped. Same with Te Hiwi, who is a tank of a bloke. A lot of other franchises have you blokes in and around squads for three years before they properly start. It looks like at times we have a sink or swim philosophy at 21.
What makes you concerned about Josh Whaanga to the point he gets scraped? It’s his first year in the squad as a fully contracted player and has just turned 21 last month… you aren’t exactly going to throw him to the wolves when there are TUJ and Tele’a ahead of him at 13 along with Tangitau in 14 doing good jobs.
You compare other squads having players around for three years before they properly start, perhaps that is the approach with Whaanga.
He took steps forward last year in the NPC and I expect that to continue again this NPC season. Next year we can expect to see some of him in super. From everything I’ve been hearing they are very happy with how he is progressing and maturing.
Exactly. Stick with this core, and then if it doesn’t work try again. The only real holes I see are at tighthead, and maybe number eight, though I think both is a NZ wide issue.
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@SouthernMann said in Highlanders 2025:
There are several guys I am concerned about. Josh Whaanga is the biggest one in my book. I can see a situation. Where he just gets scraped. Same with Te Hiwi, who is a tank of a bloke. A lot of other franchises have you blokes in and around squads for three years before they properly start. It looks like at times we have a sink or swim philosophy at 21.
Definitely a balance to be struck. Whaanga I don’t really think is in selection consideration this season, will get a better view on him in time. I think part of the sink or swim is down to the fact that guys like Te Hiwi for example were never that good in the first place (Poor talent ID). Umaga-Jensen for example, took several years to finally crack it, but when he was the same age, there was clear signs.
Your lads like Blair Ryall, Tosi, Moorby, Tupou (real Southland theme there) we have missed out on they have gone and played well elsewhere.
Can’t blame ourselves for Tosi I don’t think… Moorby and Tupou Taieloa though we have shot ourselves in the foot
And a slight glance at your 27 squad. Shaun Kempton should hopefully be there too. As long as he can get to size. That kid is a freak.
Hooker could be a real test of this regime. Do you back local or do you go for the best in class? Kempton to me is another Taylor. Good eye-catching skills, but lacks the out and out grunt of his peers. Bell is the opposite, does the grunt, but not the flashy stuff. Vikena is somewhere in the middle, and is definitely worth persisting with. Considering the logjam up the road, we’d be dumb not to enquire about Ouderyn. FWIW, if we can't get a real star like that, I'd stick rather than twisting.
@frugby said in Highlanders 2025:
@SouthernMann said in Highlanders 2025:
There are several guys I am concerned about. Josh Whaanga is the biggest one in my book. I can see a situation. Where he just gets scraped. Same with Te Hiwi, who is a tank of a bloke. A lot of other franchises have you blokes in and around squads for three years before they properly start. It looks like at times we have a sink or swim philosophy at 21.
Definitely a balance to be struck. Whaanga I don’t really think is in selection consideration this season, will get a better view on him in time. I think part of the sink or swim is down to the fact that guys like Te Hiwi for example were never that good in the first place (Poor talent ID). Umaga-Jensen for example, took several years to finally crack it, but when he was the same age, there was clear signs.
Your lads like Blair Ryall, Tosi, Moorby, Tupou (real Southland theme there) we have missed out on they have gone and played well elsewhere.
Can’t blame ourselves for Tosi I don’t think… Moorby and Tupou Taieloa though we have shot ourselves in the foot
And a slight glance at your 27 squad. Shaun Kempton should hopefully be there too. As long as he can get to size. That kid is a freak.
Hooker could be a real test of this regime. Do you back local or do you go for the best in class? Kempton to me is another Taylor. Good eye-catching skills, but lacks the out and out grunt of his peers. Bell is the opposite, does the grunt, but not the flashy stuff. Vikena is somewhere in the middle, and is definitely worth persisting with. Considering the logjam up the road, we’d be dumb not to enquire about Ouderyn.
Bell's core skills like being beaten numerous times defensively on Saturday night.
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i think sometimes we need to be more honest and more brave, accept that we might have a season where we come dead last (rather than trying to make the playoffs and sometime scraping in and sometimes missing)....BUT....we actually give some of these young guys some game time....rather than 5-10 minutes every few games and then writing them off....or playing 6/10 gilbert in whatever position we need a body and they dont get any experience
maybe its just mean but i dont actually find finishing 6-8 with burnt out journeymen much more enjoyable than i would 9-11 with young promising people
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@frugby said in Highlanders 2025:
@SouthernMann said in Highlanders 2025:
There are several guys I am concerned about. Josh Whaanga is the biggest one in my book. I can see a situation. Where he just gets scraped. Same with Te Hiwi, who is a tank of a bloke. A lot of other franchises have you blokes in and around squads for three years before they properly start. It looks like at times we have a sink or swim philosophy at 21.
Definitely a balance to be struck. Whaanga I don’t really think is in selection consideration this season, will get a better view on him in time. I think part of the sink or swim is down to the fact that guys like Te Hiwi for example were never that good in the first place (Poor talent ID). Umaga-Jensen for example, took several years to finally crack it, but when he was the same age, there was clear signs.
Your lads like Blair Ryall, Tosi, Moorby, Tupou (real Southland theme there) we have missed out on they have gone and played well elsewhere.
Can’t blame ourselves for Tosi I don’t think… Moorby and Tupou Taieloa though we have shot ourselves in the foot
And a slight glance at your 27 squad. Shaun Kempton should hopefully be there too. As long as he can get to size. That kid is a freak.
Hooker could be a real test of this regime. Do you back local or do you go for the best in class? Kempton to me is another Taylor. Good eye-catching skills, but lacks the out and out grunt of his peers. Bell is the opposite, does the grunt, but not the flashy stuff. Vikena is somewhere in the middle, and is definitely worth persisting with. Considering the logjam up the road, we’d be dumb not to enquire about Ouderyn.
Bell's core skills like being beaten numerous times defensively on Saturday night.
@SouthernMann said in Highlanders 2025:
Hooker could be a real test of this regime. Do you back local or do you go for the best in class? Kempton to me is another Taylor. Good eye-catching skills, but lacks the out and out grunt of his peers. Bell is the opposite, does the grunt, but not the flashy stuff. Vikena is somewhere in the middle, and is definitely worth persisting with. Considering the logjam up the road, we’d be dumb not to enquire about Ouderyn.
Bell's core skills like being beaten numerous times defensively on Saturday night.
Jamie Joseph clearly disagrees with you. Jack Taylor's first action was missing a tackle on halfway... saying you don't rate Bell is fine, but picking on his defence is an odd-route to go down. Our scrum functions better with him on the field, he clears more rucks than the other two also. Bell has made 21/23 tackles. Taylor has made 55/64. Taylor misses 1/7, Bell 1/11.
Is he exciting with ball in hand? No, far from it, which is why he could be improved on, but Jack Taylor running with the ball is all well and good, but if he does bugger all else, it is no good to the team. Taylor is young and will improve, but getting rid of Bell for Kempton would just be silly.
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i think sometimes we need to be more honest and more brave, accept that we might have a season where we come dead last (rather than trying to make the playoffs and sometime scraping in and sometimes missing)....BUT....we actually give some of these young guys some game time....rather than 5-10 minutes every few games and then writing them off....or playing 6/10 gilbert in whatever position we need a body and they dont get any experience
maybe its just mean but i dont actually find finishing 6-8 with burnt out journeymen much more enjoyable than i would 9-11 with young promising people
@Kiwiwomble said in Highlanders 2025:
i think sometimes we need to be more honest and more brave, accept that we might have a season where we come dead last (rather than trying to make the playoffs and sometime scraping in and sometimes missing)....BUT....we actually give some of these young guys some game time....rather than 5-10 minutes every few games and then writing them off....or playing 6/10 gilbert in whatever position we need a body and they dont get any experience
maybe its just mean but i dont actually find finishing 6-8 with burnt out journeymen much more enjoyable than i would 9-11 with young promising people
This is what we are doing though. The young guys who are ready are playing... I'd wager the Highlanders have easily played the most U23 minutes certainly of the NZ sides, if not the whole comp. Who else would you like to see played?
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@Kiwiwomble said in Highlanders 2025:
i think sometimes we need to be more honest and more brave, accept that we might have a season where we come dead last (rather than trying to make the playoffs and sometime scraping in and sometimes missing)....BUT....we actually give some of these young guys some game time....rather than 5-10 minutes every few games and then writing them off....or playing 6/10 gilbert in whatever position we need a body and they dont get any experience
maybe its just mean but i dont actually find finishing 6-8 with burnt out journeymen much more enjoyable than i would 9-11 with young promising people
This is what we are doing though. The young guys who are ready are playing... I'd wager the Highlanders have easily played the most U23 minutes certainly of the NZ sides, if not the whole comp. Who else would you like to see played?
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@frugby ive said before i dont know why we've seen gilbert on the wing (yes i know people say it was some of his best games) when we had guys like mason or waanga in the squad
@Kiwiwomble said in Highlanders 2025:
@frugby ive said before i dont know why we've seen gilbert on the wing (yes i know people say it was some of his best games) when we had guys like mason or waanga in the squad
Michael Manson showed us why we haven't seen more of Michael Manson against the Force, and I think he'll be lucky to play for the Highlanders again. Just because a player is young doesn't mean they have potential. Could we have shoehorned Whaanga in on the wing over Gilbert? Maybe, but also, for starters he is definitely a midfielder, and for second, as @Landers92 points out, he is being managed.
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@Kiwiwomble said in Highlanders 2025:
@frugby ive said before i dont know why we've seen gilbert on the wing (yes i know people say it was some of his best games) when we had guys like mason or waanga in the squad
Michael Manson showed us why we haven't seen more of Michael Manson against the Force, and I think he'll be lucky to play for the Highlanders again. Just because a player is young doesn't mean they have potential. Could we have shoehorned Whaanga in on the wing over Gilbert? Maybe, but also, for starters he is definitely a midfielder, and for second, as @Landers92 points out, he is being managed.
@frugby and i saw mason the other way, inexperienced showed but the raw speed showed through too and i think more experience will iron out a lot...and over all...we still fucking lost....and i would rather an exciting loss than a boring as fuck one
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i think sometimes we need to be more honest and more brave, accept that we might have a season where we come dead last (rather than trying to make the playoffs and sometime scraping in and sometimes missing)....BUT....we actually give some of these young guys some game time....rather than 5-10 minutes every few games and then writing them off....or playing 6/10 gilbert in whatever position we need a body and they dont get any experience
maybe its just mean but i dont actually find finishing 6-8 with burnt out journeymen much more enjoyable than i would 9-11 with young promising people
@Kiwiwomble said in Highlanders 2025:
i think sometimes we need to be more honest and more brave, accept that we might have a season where we come dead last (rather than trying to make the playoffs and sometime scraping in and sometimes missing)....BUT....we actually give some of these young guys some game time....rather than 5-10 minutes every few games and then writing them off....or playing 6/10 gilbert in whatever position we need a body and they dont get any experience
maybe its just mean but i dont actually find finishing 6-8 with burnt out journeymen much more enjoyable than i would 9-11 with young promising people
This is the period we are theoretically in.
With the mix of youth and some outside experience.
My rose tinted glasses hope was to finish somewhere between 5th and 8th. Being in contention going into the final round. I think we have have blew it with the loses to the Hurricanes and the Reds.
It is just difficult when guys are learning as rugby players against very experienced players.
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@Kiwiwomble said in Highlanders 2025:
i think sometimes we need to be more honest and more brave, accept that we might have a season where we come dead last (rather than trying to make the playoffs and sometime scraping in and sometimes missing)....BUT....we actually give some of these young guys some game time....rather than 5-10 minutes every few games and then writing them off....or playing 6/10 gilbert in whatever position we need a body and they dont get any experience
maybe its just mean but i dont actually find finishing 6-8 with burnt out journeymen much more enjoyable than i would 9-11 with young promising people
This is the period we are theoretically in.
With the mix of youth and some outside experience.
My rose tinted glasses hope was to finish somewhere between 5th and 8th. Being in contention going into the final round. I think we have have blew it with the loses to the Hurricanes and the Reds.
It is just difficult when guys are learning as rugby players against very experienced players.
@SouthernMann said in Highlanders 2025:
@Kiwiwomble said in Highlanders 2025:
i think sometimes we need to be more honest and more brave, accept that we might have a season where we come dead last (rather than trying to make the playoffs and sometime scraping in and sometimes missing)....BUT....we actually give some of these young guys some game time....rather than 5-10 minutes every few games and then writing them off....or playing 6/10 gilbert in whatever position we need a body and they dont get any experience
maybe its just mean but i dont actually find finishing 6-8 with burnt out journeymen much more enjoyable than i would 9-11 with young promising people
This is the period we are theoretically in.
With the mix of youth and some outside experience.
My rose tinted glasses hope was to finish somewhere between 5th and 8th. Being in contention going into the final round. I think we have have blew it with the loses to the Hurricanes and the Reds.
It is just difficult when guys are learning as rugby players against very experienced players.
For sure. 2026 & 2027 are sink and swim, where we work out if our talent ID has been any good/JJ is actually the right guy in the modern environment.
But with that squad I listed above, I'm backing the project till it dies. By 2027, de Groot, Holland & Haig will be All Blacks, JRK & Pledger will be banging the door down, and Tangitau will be in there if he is still here. With solid players around, you could definitely mount a challenge, and as a Highlanders fan that is the best we can ever hope for.
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@Kiwiwomble said in Highlanders 2025:
i think sometimes we need to be more honest and more brave, accept that we might have a season where we come dead last (rather than trying to make the playoffs and sometime scraping in and sometimes missing)....BUT....we actually give some of these young guys some game time....rather than 5-10 minutes every few games and then writing them off....or playing 6/10 gilbert in whatever position we need a body and they dont get any experience
maybe its just mean but i dont actually find finishing 6-8 with burnt out journeymen much more enjoyable than i would 9-11 with young promising people
This is the period we are theoretically in.
With the mix of youth and some outside experience.
My rose tinted glasses hope was to finish somewhere between 5th and 8th. Being in contention going into the final round. I think we have have blew it with the loses to the Hurricanes and the Reds.
It is just difficult when guys are learning as rugby players against very experienced players.
@SouthernMann said in Highlanders 2025:
@Kiwiwomble said in Highlanders 2025:
i think sometimes we need to be more honest and more brave, accept that we might have a season where we come dead last (rather than trying to make the playoffs and sometime scraping in and sometimes missing)....BUT....we actually give some of these young guys some game time....rather than 5-10 minutes every few games and then writing them off....or playing 6/10 gilbert in whatever position we need a body and they dont get any experience
maybe its just mean but i dont actually find finishing 6-8 with burnt out journeymen much more enjoyable than i would 9-11 with young promising people
This is the period we are theoretically in.
With the mix of youth and some outside experience.
My rose tinted glasses hope was to finish somewhere between 5th and 8th. Being in contention going into the final round. I think we have have blew it with the loses to the Hurricanes and the Reds.
It is just difficult when guys are learning as rugby players against very experienced players.
i think thats my point, whats the "experience" giving us? we're talking about these young guys moving on when they havent had as much time as the experienced ones
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@SouthernMann said in Highlanders 2025:
@Kiwiwomble said in Highlanders 2025:
i think sometimes we need to be more honest and more brave, accept that we might have a season where we come dead last (rather than trying to make the playoffs and sometime scraping in and sometimes missing)....BUT....we actually give some of these young guys some game time....rather than 5-10 minutes every few games and then writing them off....or playing 6/10 gilbert in whatever position we need a body and they dont get any experience
maybe its just mean but i dont actually find finishing 6-8 with burnt out journeymen much more enjoyable than i would 9-11 with young promising people
This is the period we are theoretically in.
With the mix of youth and some outside experience.
My rose tinted glasses hope was to finish somewhere between 5th and 8th. Being in contention going into the final round. I think we have have blew it with the loses to the Hurricanes and the Reds.
It is just difficult when guys are learning as rugby players against very experienced players.
For sure. 2026 & 2027 are sink and swim, where we work out if our talent ID has been any good/JJ is actually the right guy in the modern environment.
But with that squad I listed above, I'm backing the project till it dies. By 2027, de Groot, Holland & Haig will be All Blacks, JRK & Pledger will be banging the door down, and Tangitau will be in there if he is still here. With solid players around, you could definitely mount a challenge, and as a Highlanders fan that is the best we can ever hope for.
@frugby said in Highlanders 2025:
@SouthernMann said in Highlanders 2025:
@Kiwiwomble said in Highlanders 2025:
i think sometimes we need to be more honest and more brave, accept that we might have a season where we come dead last (rather than trying to make the playoffs and sometime scraping in and sometimes missing)....BUT....we actually give some of these young guys some game time....rather than 5-10 minutes every few games and then writing them off....or playing 6/10 gilbert in whatever position we need a body and they dont get any experience
maybe its just mean but i dont actually find finishing 6-8 with burnt out journeymen much more enjoyable than i would 9-11 with young promising people
This is the period we are theoretically in.
With the mix of youth and some outside experience.
My rose tinted glasses hope was to finish somewhere between 5th and 8th. Being in contention going into the final round. I think we have have blew it with the loses to the Hurricanes and the Reds.
It is just difficult when guys are learning as rugby players against very experienced players.
For sure. 2026 & 2027 are sink and swim, where we work out if our talent ID has been any good/JJ is actually the right guy in the modern environment.
But with that squad I listed above, I'm backing the project till it dies. By 2027, de Groot, Holland & Haig will be All Blacks, JRK & Pledger will be banging the door down, and Tangitau will be in there if he is still here. With solid players around, you could definitely mount a challenge, and as a Highlanders fan that is the best we can ever hope for.
The guys who will make or break the long-term in my eyes are Pledger and Mika Muliaina. Which will take several years to really land. Clubs really need to develop their own 10s. The good ones hardly ever leave their home franchises.
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Shaun Kempson is an interesting one The Crusaders thought he was too small and invested in Manumaua Letiu and Eli Oduryan. Shaun has good skills but size may hold him back he has been through a rough time with his dad passing away in Christchurch a couple of years back a good man around the Canterbury rugby scene,He never saw his boy play above schoolboy level.
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Article on Shaun Kempton. Couple of opportunities with other franchises, Crusaders and Blues.
Big work on is his size and physicality
https://www.thepress.co.nz/sport/360646169/southlander-stoked-be-part-new-zealand-under-20s
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Article on Shaun Kempton. Couple of opportunities with other franchises, Crusaders and Blues.
Big work on is his size and physicality
https://www.thepress.co.nz/sport/360646169/southlander-stoked-be-part-new-zealand-under-20s
@SouthernMann said in Highlanders 2025:
Article on Shaun Kempton. Couple of opportunities with other franchises, Crusaders and Blues.
Big work on is his size and physicality
https://www.thepress.co.nz/sport/360646169/southlander-stoked-be-part-new-zealand-under-20s
Yeah Academy spot at the Crusaders not a WTG contract.
or a Rookie training contract they went to Manumaua Letiu and Eli Oduryan. -
@SouthernMann said in Highlanders 2025:
Article on Shaun Kempton. Couple of opportunities with other franchises, Crusaders and Blues.
Big work on is his size and physicality
https://www.thepress.co.nz/sport/360646169/southlander-stoked-be-part-new-zealand-under-20s
Yeah Academy spot at the Crusaders not a WTG contract.
or a Rookie training contract they went to Manumaua Letiu and Eli Oduryan.@Chris said in Highlanders 2025:
@SouthernMann said in Highlanders 2025:
Article on Shaun Kempton. Couple of opportunities with other franchises, Crusaders and Blues.
Big work on is his size and physicality
https://www.thepress.co.nz/sport/360646169/southlander-stoked-be-part-new-zealand-under-20s
Yeah Academy spot at the Crusaders not a WTG contract.
or a Rookie training contract they went to Manumaua Letiu and Eli Oduryan.And there isn't really anything splitting those three.
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@Chris said in Highlanders 2025:
@SouthernMann said in Highlanders 2025:
Article on Shaun Kempton. Couple of opportunities with other franchises, Crusaders and Blues.
Big work on is his size and physicality
https://www.thepress.co.nz/sport/360646169/southlander-stoked-be-part-new-zealand-under-20s
Yeah Academy spot at the Crusaders not a WTG contract.
or a Rookie training contract they went to Manumaua Letiu and Eli Oduryan.And there isn't really anything splitting those three.
@SouthernMann said in Highlanders 2025:
@Chris said in Highlanders 2025:
@SouthernMann said in Highlanders 2025:
Article on Shaun Kempton. Couple of opportunities with other franchises, Crusaders and Blues.
Big work on is his size and physicality
https://www.thepress.co.nz/sport/360646169/southlander-stoked-be-part-new-zealand-under-20s
Yeah Academy spot at the Crusaders not a WTG contract.
or a Rookie training contract they went to Manumaua Letiu and Eli Oduryan.And there isn't really anything splitting those three.
Yeah a bit different for me, Shaun is a good bloke I hope he goes well but I would have picked the other two.
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I'd be interested to know how tall/heavy Kempton is. I didn't think that Letiu was that big either having seen both play for the 2023 NZS team.
@Bovidae said in Highlanders 2025:
I'd be interested to know how tall/heavy Kempton is. I didn't think that Letiu was that big either having seen both play for the 2023 NZS team.
At the moment I'd say he will be lucky to be 95kg. Needs to get those power gains while not losing his ability to run like an outside back
