All Blacks vs England 2
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Jesus, the panic has firmly set in. As the dust settles, we've just put away a very good England side. Sure, they have a lot to improve on, but we're two tests in to the season. Whilst we struggled for i would say 60-65 mins per test, in 15 minutes we blasted them off the park and they just had zero answers. England had a slight advantage in possession but overwhelmingly the territory yet we still won by 7. We've now got 3 tests to build into South Africa and really hone in on the plan they want to implement. I still fully expect to lost both tests in SA and 2 of 4 on the EOYT which would hurt but we've got to give Razor a chance.
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@kev said in All Blacks vs England 2:
@voodoo said in All Blacks vs England 2:
Why does Scott Barrett do that half-arsed chargedown attempt at every single oppo ruck box-clearance? I don't feel like he's got one since 1993 and it just leaves him late to the next phase
Because he puts 100% into everything. He is the Richie McCaw of this team. Huge motor.
Sorry bro, but that’s a dumb response. Don’t disagree that he gives 100%, but that doesn’t mean this particular play is sensible and worthwhile. He’d be better off only challenging where he can realistically influence the play - atm he doesn’t put any pressure on the kicker and is just wasting energy. If he dropped this, he’d be able to give something like 104% in other areas…🤪
@voodoo it’s ok to disagree. Pressure can turn a kick into a poor kick, it’s not just about charge downs. It’s why you hit rucks trying to move bodies. Sometimes you make a difference but it’s all about the contest, building pressure. Scott does that better than anyone in the team. I wouldn’t want him to change.
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The counter point to that is:
In the pack 4 of the tight 5 and 1 of the loosies was a starter last year, another was an ever-present in the 23.
The midfield is the same as last year, Telea was a starter. BB is a veteran.
Throw in Reece and Patty T and Vaai as guys who have been in the environment for ages and it's not like we're embarking on a clean slate era like Australia. There should be more cohesion than there was last night.@mariner4life said in All Blacks vs England 2:
The counter point to that is:
In the pack 4 of the tight 5 and 1 of the loosies was a starter last year, another was an ever-present in the 23.
The midfield is the same as last year, Telea was a starter. BB is a veteran.
Throw in Reece and Patty T and Vaai as guys who have been in the environment for ages and it's not like we're embarking on a clean slate era like Australia. There should be more cohesion than there was last night.I'm afraid you are right, less quality is understandable, but should have been more cohesive.
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I think we have enough now who can do a job for us without needing Mo'unga and Frizzell back. They were solid, but we have guys here who are just as good, if not better than Frizzell anyway. Like, I'd pick Mo'unga if he were available, but DMac looks very comfortable there anyway so I don't think we're missing much there.
Not gonna lie though, we could probably do with Whitelock.
@African-Monkey said in All Blacks vs England 2:
I think we have enough now who can do a job for us without needing Mo'unga and Frizzell back. They were solid, but we have guys here who are just as good, if not better than Frizzell anyway. Like, I'd pick Mo'unga if he were available, but DMac looks very comfortable there anyway so I don't think we're missing much there.
Not gonna lie though, we could probably do with Whitelock.
I like Patty T but I don't think he is 100% or he isn't up to speed at test level across the park for the 40-60 minutes he is on the paddock. Vaa'i played better than I thought but I'd also suggest they bring Darry into the wider training squad. Well, Darry or similar, they need more effort at lock.
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The counter point to that is:
In the pack 4 of the tight 5 and 1 of the loosies was a starter last year, another was an ever-present in the 23.
The midfield is the same as last year, Telea was a starter. BB is a veteran.
Throw in Reece and Patty T and Vaai as guys who have been in the environment for ages and it's not like we're embarking on a clean slate era like Australia. There should be more cohesion than there was last night.@mariner4life said in All Blacks vs England 2:
The counter point to that is:
In the pack 4 of the tight 5 and 1 of the loosies was a starter last year, another was an ever-present in the 23.
The midfield is the same as last year, Telea was a starter. BB is a veteran.
Throw in Reece and Patty T and Vaai as guys who have been in the environment for ages and it's not like we're embarking on a clean slate era like Australia. There should be more cohesion than there was last night.Yeah - but, we were good enough to beat the team that also lost by a point to SA in France - and a team that's had a full 6Ns and a warm up vs Japan to prepare.
Fix the first half lineout and we'll look better. According to Razor, we did in the second half (I haven't re-watched to see).
We can blood a few players vs Fiji in San Diego and then we've got three weeks to prepare for Argentina. You'd hope to see quite a bit more cohesion in those tests - and evidence of the new systems that are being introduced.
Then massive tests against SA, who pretty much seem to have their World Cup team intact - so we will find out how we're travelling. Some promising news that the Sexton-less Irish put them away overnight!
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Another issue is the midfield, England were also great there, cramping our 12 and 13 but I wonder if there is an issue with the combo as well. Jordie and R Ioane are great when on form but neither seem to have great vision. I'm going to get hammered for this, and I do like both as players, but I have to agree Rieko acts like a frustrated winger playing at 13 (but also, is underrated on defense) and Jordie has the kicking skills to be a great 12 except-he doesnt have the skills/intuition range of a great 12 (or maybe just needs more time), and has the body of a great crashball 13 playing at 12 (but isn't suited to 13). It's a conundrum, he was so good at 12 when he started but the midfield is well-contained, we can see the talent of the ABs when they can free that ball, but the midfield is spluttering.
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@mariner4life said in All Blacks vs England 2:
The counter point to that is:
In the pack 4 of the tight 5 and 1 of the loosies was a starter last year, another was an ever-present in the 23.
The midfield is the same as last year, Telea was a starter. BB is a veteran.
Throw in Reece and Patty T and Vaai as guys who have been in the environment for ages and it's not like we're embarking on a clean slate era like Australia. There should be more cohesion than there was last night.Yeah - but, we were good enough to beat the team that also lost by a point to SA in France - and a team that's had a full 6Ns and a warm up vs Japan to prepare.
Fix the first half lineout and we'll look better. According to Razor, we did in the second half (I haven't re-watched to see).
We can blood a few players vs Fiji in San Diego and then we've got three weeks to prepare for Argentina. You'd hope to see quite a bit more cohesion in those tests - and evidence of the new systems that are being introduced.
Then massive tests against SA, who pretty much seem to have their World Cup team intact - so we will find out how we're travelling. Some promising news that the Sexton-less Irish put them away overnight!
@Chris-B said in All Blacks vs England 2:
@mariner4life said in All Blacks vs England 2:
The counter point to that is:
In the pack 4 of the tight 5 and 1 of the loosies was a starter last year, another was an ever-present in the 23.
The midfield is the same as last year, Telea was a starter. BB is a veteran.
Throw in Reece and Patty T and Vaai as guys who have been in the environment for ages and it's not like we're embarking on a clean slate era like Australia. There should be more cohesion than there was last night.Yeah - but, we were good enough to beat the team that also lost by a point to SA in France - and a team that's had a full 6Ns and a warm up vs Japan to prepare.
Fix the first half lineout and we'll look better. According to Razor, we did in the second half (I haven't re-watched to see).
We can blood a few players vs Fiji in San Diego and then we've got three weeks to prepare for Argentina. You'd hope to see quite a bit more cohesion in those tests - and evidence of the new systems that are being introduced.
Then massive tests against SA, who pretty much seem to have their World Cup team intact - so we will find out how we're travelling. Some promising news that the Sexton-less Irish put them away overnight!
I'll be very curious to see who they choose for Argentina.
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@African-Monkey said in All Blacks vs England 2:
@frugby The fern logic, the less you play, the higher you get rated.
Man, this forum is crazy. We're in a transition period and things will take time getting used to. Like yeah, players had indifferent nights, but if it were up to people on Here, we'd make about 13 changes a test just to get peoples favourites in. They're still finding their feet and getting used to things under a nee coaching system. It always seems to be the same parochial bias as well which clouds everyone's judgement.
I hear what you say, but in the last 2-3 years the rules have been:
- If a player has a bad night or makes a mistake - blame the coach for selecting him
- If a team needs to find its feet - blame the coach for poor preparation
- If the ABs lose - blame the coach for not selecting the team the Fern wants
- If a selection doesn't come off - blame the coach for getting it wrong
- If a Fern selection doesn't come off - still blame the coach for getting it wrong
I think that's it...
@Victor-Meldrew said in All Blacks vs England 2:
@African-Monkey said in All Blacks vs England 2:
@frugby The fern logic, the less you play, the higher you get rated.
Man, this forum is crazy. We're in a transition period and things will take time getting used to. Like yeah, players had indifferent nights, but if it were up to people on Here, we'd make about 13 changes a test just to get peoples favourites in. They're still finding their feet and getting used to things under a nee coaching system. It always seems to be the same parochial bias as well which clouds everyone's judgement.
I hear what you say, but in the last 2-3 years the rules have been:
- If a player has a bad night or makes a mistake - blame the coach for selecting him
- If a team needs to find its feet - blame the coach for poor preparation
- If the ABs lose - blame the coach for not selecting the team the Fern wants
- If a selection doesn't come off - blame the coach for getting it wrong
- If a Fern selection doesn't come off - still blame the coach for getting it wrong
I think that's it...
You new around here? Last 2-3 years? It has been since the dawn of TSF time.
You are waaaaaaay too sensitive about Foster
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@Chris-B said in All Blacks vs England 2:
@mariner4life said in All Blacks vs England 2:
The counter point to that is:
In the pack 4 of the tight 5 and 1 of the loosies was a starter last year, another was an ever-present in the 23.
The midfield is the same as last year, Telea was a starter. BB is a veteran.
Throw in Reece and Patty T and Vaai as guys who have been in the environment for ages and it's not like we're embarking on a clean slate era like Australia. There should be more cohesion than there was last night.Yeah - but, we were good enough to beat the team that also lost by a point to SA in France - and a team that's had a full 6Ns and a warm up vs Japan to prepare.
Fix the first half lineout and we'll look better. According to Razor, we did in the second half (I haven't re-watched to see).
We can blood a few players vs Fiji in San Diego and then we've got three weeks to prepare for Argentina. You'd hope to see quite a bit more cohesion in those tests - and evidence of the new systems that are being introduced.
Then massive tests against SA, who pretty much seem to have their World Cup team intact - so we will find out how we're travelling. Some promising news that the Sexton-less Irish put them away overnight!
I'll be very curious to see who they choose for Argentina.
@nostrildamus Not too many changes, I think - and will depend on who is fit and match ready.
I'd expect, Perenara back at 9 if he's fit. Probably Clarke for Telea.
Maybe Jacobsen or Blackadder for Finau.
Possibly Beauden at fullback and Jordan (if fit) from the bench.
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and the top scoring 10 at the RWC didn't even play in the final
https://www.rugbyworldcup.com/2023/stats/players?metric=points -
@Frank said in All Blacks vs England 2:
Perofeta actually should not have thrown to Telea in that movement when he was cut down before the line.
He had Christie and Jordie inside me and unmarked.
Telea should have done better though. Look at the space he has.
@KiwiMurph said in All Blacks vs England 2:
@Frank said in All Blacks vs England 2:
Perofeta actually should not have thrown to Telea in that movement when he was cut down before the line.
He had Christie and Jordie inside me and unmarked.Telea should have done better though. Look at the space he has.
It may look like space but as someone who played at wing and in the centres, the defender clearly has the angle on Telea as well as pace (as we saw all game).
The fullback in that screen capture has the dream defence scenario as a back 3 player, you have the angle, you have the sideline and because Perofeta passed early, sole focus on Telea.
He was always going to make that tackle and when he did, Telea had no choice but to either be taken over the sideline or throw the miracle ball back inside which, as we know, was picked off by Smith.
Watching the replay of this again, that was all on Perofeta as he had two un-marked men on his inside but never even looked in that direction, only at Telea which made it even easier for the English 15 coming across in cover.
Plus, Perofeta didn't even attempt to draw and pass the 15 or delay him enough to give Telea a chance.
100% that was all on Perofeta.
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@Nepia "Don't it always seem to go, that you don't know what you've got till it's gone."
Told you guys a couple of years ago that Richie the Mo was probably the best first five in the world - Danny Boy (and World Rugby) have come around to my view.
https://rugbylad.ie/dan-carter-all-blacks-debate/
Frizz was a lot more effective than you guys thought. We rarely lost when he played.
@Chris-B said in All Blacks vs England 2:
@Nepia "Don't it always seem to go, that you don't know what you've got till it's gone."
Told you guys a couple of years ago that Richie the Mo was probably the best first five in the world - Danny Boy (and World Rugby) have come around to my view.
https://rugbylad.ie/dan-carter-all-blacks-debate/
Frizz was a lot more effective than you guys thought. We rarely lost when he played.
We lost when it mattered.
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@Chris-B said in All Blacks vs England 2:
@Nepia "Don't it always seem to go, that you don't know what you've got till it's gone."
Told you guys a couple of years ago that Richie the Mo was probably the best first five in the world - Danny Boy (and World Rugby) have come around to my view.
https://rugbylad.ie/dan-carter-all-blacks-debate/
Frizz was a lot more effective than you guys thought. We rarely lost when he played.
We lost when it mattered.
@gt12 said in All Blacks vs England 2:
@Chris-B said in All Blacks vs England 2:
@Nepia "Don't it always seem to go, that you don't know what you've got till it's gone."
Told you guys a couple of years ago that Richie the Mo was probably the best first five in the world - Danny Boy (and World Rugby) have come around to my view.
https://rugbylad.ie/dan-carter-all-blacks-debate/
Frizz was a lot more effective than you guys thought. We rarely lost when he played.
We lost when it mattered.
Ouch.
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@KiwiMurph said in All Blacks vs England 2:
@Frank said in All Blacks vs England 2:
Perofeta actually should not have thrown to Telea in that movement when he was cut down before the line.
He had Christie and Jordie inside me and unmarked.Telea should have done better though. Look at the space he has.
It may look like space but as someone who played at wing and in the centres, the defender clearly has the angle on Telea as well as pace (as we saw all game).
The fullback in that screen capture has the dream defence scenario as a back 3 player, you have the angle, you have the sideline and because Perofeta passed early, sole focus on Telea.
He was always going to make that tackle and when he did, Telea had no choice but to either be taken over the sideline or throw the miracle ball back inside which, as we know, was picked off by Smith.
Watching the replay of this again, that was all on Perofeta as he had two un-marked men on his inside but never even looked in that direction, only at Telea which made it even easier for the English 15 coming across in cover.
Plus, Perofeta didn't even attempt to draw and pass the 15 or delay him enough to give Telea a chance.
100% that was all on Perofeta.
@RoninWC said in All Blacks vs England 2:
It may look like space but as someone who played at wing and in the centres, the defender clearly has the angle on Telea as well as pace (as we saw all game).
I see what you are saying
I guess my point is with a faster wing the angle wouldn't have been there.
Perofeta had to slow down as well giving the cover more time to come across.
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@RoninWC said in All Blacks vs England 2:
It may look like space but as someone who played at wing and in the centres, the defender clearly has the angle on Telea as well as pace (as we saw all game).
I see what you are saying
I guess my point is with a faster wing the angle wouldn't have been there.
Perofeta had to slow down as well giving the cover more time to come across.
@KiwiMurph said in All Blacks vs England 2:
@RoninWC said in All Blacks vs England 2:
It may look like space but as someone who played at wing and in the centres, the defender clearly has the angle on Telea as well as pace (as we saw all game).
I see what you are saying
I guess my point is with a faster wing the angle wouldn't have been there.
Perofeta had to slow down as well giving the cover more time to come across.
It was embarrassing how at least twice ABs had to slow down so that Telea could keep up. I'm sure he's got a niggle.
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The Welsh don't seem to rate Telea's speed (in 2023)
https://www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/rugby/rugby-news/fastest-players-rugby-world-cup-27741318 -
@KiwiMurph said in All Blacks vs England 2:
@RoninWC said in All Blacks vs England 2:
It may look like space but as someone who played at wing and in the centres, the defender clearly has the angle on Telea as well as pace (as we saw all game).
I see what you are saying
I guess my point is with a faster wing the angle wouldn't have been there.
Perofeta had to slow down as well giving the cover more time to come across.
It was embarrassing how at least twice ABs had to slow down so that Telea could keep up. I'm sure he's got a niggle.
@nostrildamus I think he does too. I'm a huge fan of his, but yeah, he's not the quickest we've had, but he hasn't been as slow as he was last night.
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The counter point to that is:
In the pack 4 of the tight 5 and 1 of the loosies was a starter last year, another was an ever-present in the 23.
The midfield is the same as last year, Telea was a starter. BB is a veteran.
Throw in Reece and Patty T and Vaai as guys who have been in the environment for ages and it's not like we're embarking on a clean slate era like Australia. There should be more cohesion than there was last night.@mariner4life said in All Blacks vs England 2:
The counter point to that is:
In the pack 4 of the tight 5 and 1 of the loosies was a starter last year, another was an ever-present in the 23.
The midfield is the same as last year, Telea was a starter. BB is a veteran.
Throw in Reece and Patty T and Vaai as guys who have been in the environment for ages and it's not like we're embarking on a clean slate era like Australia. There should be more cohesion than there was last night.Maybe, just maybe... Englands defence had something to do with a lack of cohesion...
I personally believe the biggest influence other that England's defence, was the fact that Christie was far to slow to clear the rucks. And that gave the England defence time to reset and also robbed our ball runners and backs of the precious forward momentum.
