All Blacks vs Argentina I
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Gracias chicos!
You have to give some credit to a gutsy Argentina. They took the opportunities that were given to them…on a platter mostly.
My sense is the ABs did what they are often are guilty of these days - not respecting the opposition, not respecting the ball, sacrificing structure and discipline for helter-skelter rugby, lacking pragmatism about taking three points when they are on offer, and playing loosey-goosey Super Rugby in the test arena.
Who do we blame for all that? There seems to be a lack of hard-heads in the coaching box and in the on-field leadership. For all his individual gifts, Savea is not a good skipper and seeks to win the game all on his own.
The ABs were 20-8 up at one stage and looked to be a try away from pulling away out of sight, but they let the Argentinians back in with sloppy, ultra-loose play that betrayed the old ‘we’re the Harlem Globetrotters of World Rugby and we can score more tries than you’ mentality.
Then when the pressure came on in the final quarter, they fell apart mentally. Loose and panicky passes, often with little pressure, wayward lineout throws, poor option-taking, and on it went. Same old car crash.
I don’t think Robertson is a bad coach, but I do wonder at the quality of his assistants and whether there are too many of them. It all seems too pally and collegiate. MacDonald has never impressed me, and I wonder what Hansen brings to the party.
In what was a familiar scenario, the whole AB game had a Marie Celeste element to it. There was a sense of nobody being at the wheel and you could see them drifting inexorably toward the rocks in slow motion. Yet the ABs thrashed Argentina in the WC semi-final and it’s tough to believe they suddenly became that bad, and Argentina that good in less than a year.
So it looks and smells like an attitude problem, a lack of leadership problem, an absence of test rugby pragmatism, and the old familiar trap of elevating the desire to put on a spectacle above the requirement to win the game.
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Gracias chicos!
You have to give some credit to a gutsy Argentina. They took the opportunities that were given to them…on a platter mostly.
My sense is the ABs did what they are often are guilty of these days - not respecting the opposition, not respecting the ball, sacrificing structure and discipline for helter-skelter rugby, lacking pragmatism about taking three points when they are on offer, and playing loosey-goosey Super Rugby in the test arena.
Who do we blame for all that? There seems to be a lack of hard-heads in the coaching box and in the on-field leadership. For all his individual gifts, Savea is not a good skipper and seeks to win the game all on his own.
The ABs were 20-8 up at one stage and looked to be a try away from pulling away out of sight, but they let the Argentinians back in with sloppy, ultra-loose play that betrayed the old ‘we’re the Harlem Globetrotters of World Rugby and we can score more tries than you’ mentality.
Then when the pressure came on in the final quarter, they fell apart mentally. Loose and panicky passes, often with little pressure, wayward lineout throws, poor option-taking, and on it went. Same old car crash.
I don’t think Robertson is a bad coach, but I do wonder at the quality of his assistants and whether there are too many of them. It all seems too pally and collegiate. MacDonald has never impressed me, and I wonder what Hansen brings to the party.
In what was a familiar scenario, the whole AB game had a Marie Celeste element to it. There was a sense of nobody being at the wheel and you could see them drifting inexorably toward the rocks in slow motion. Yet the ABs thrashed Argentina in the WC semi-final and it’s tough to believe they suddenly became that bad, and Argentina that good in less than a year.
So it looks and smells like an attitude problem, a lack of leadership problem, an absence of test rugby pragmatism, and the old familiar trap of elevating the desire to put on a spectacle above the requirement to win the game.
@His-Bobness Vintage HB.
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Gracias chicos!
You have to give some credit to a gutsy Argentina. They took the opportunities that were given to them…on a platter mostly.
My sense is the ABs did what they are often are guilty of these days - not respecting the opposition, not respecting the ball, sacrificing structure and discipline for helter-skelter rugby, lacking pragmatism about taking three points when they are on offer, and playing loosey-goosey Super Rugby in the test arena.
Who do we blame for all that? There seems to be a lack of hard-heads in the coaching box and in the on-field leadership. For all his individual gifts, Savea is not a good skipper and seeks to win the game all on his own.
The ABs were 20-8 up at one stage and looked to be a try away from pulling away out of sight, but they let the Argentinians back in with sloppy, ultra-loose play that betrayed the old ‘we’re the Harlem Globetrotters of World Rugby and we can score more tries than you’ mentality.
Then when the pressure came on in the final quarter, they fell apart mentally. Loose and panicky passes, often with little pressure, wayward lineout throws, poor option-taking, and on it went. Same old car crash.
I don’t think Robertson is a bad coach, but I do wonder at the quality of his assistants and whether there are too many of them. It all seems too pally and collegiate. MacDonald has never impressed me, and I wonder what Hansen brings to the party.
In what was a familiar scenario, the whole AB game had a Marie Celeste element to it. There was a sense of nobody being at the wheel and you could see them drifting inexorably toward the rocks in slow motion. Yet the ABs thrashed Argentina in the WC semi-final and it’s tough to believe they suddenly became that bad, and Argentina that good in less than a year.
So it looks and smells like an attitude problem, a lack of leadership problem, an absence of test rugby pragmatism, and the old familiar trap of elevating the desire to put on a spectacle above the requirement to win the game.
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@His-Bobness in a recent interview, didn't Razor say we were in the entertainment business (or something to that effect)?
@canefan Yes, I also think this is what happens when you sell a ‘brand’ to private equity. His real bosses are the big money people sitting in New York with no emotional investment in the game and everything hanging on the need to make a quick profit.
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Matera and Creevy led. Even led Angus at the end
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@Canes4life said in All Blacks vs Argentina I - 10 August:
@Chris said in All Blacks vs Argentina I - 10 August:
@antipodean said in All Blacks vs Argentina I - 10 August:
@Chris said in All Blacks vs Argentina I - 10 August:
@antipodean said in All Blacks vs Argentina I - 10 August:
@Chris said in All Blacks vs Argentina I - 10 August:
@antipodean said in All Blacks vs Argentina I - 10 August:
@Canes4life said in All Blacks vs Argentina I - 10 August:
@nostrildamus said in All Blacks vs Argentina I - 10 August:
Aumua took a great time to throw so badly
No one jumped though. Just piss poor all around. Horrible game overall by the ABs.
Why are people blaming Aumua for a lineout where he had no targets? The whole thing was a debacle and speaks volumes about the coaching and selecting.
Fucking abysmal. At least Fozzie got us to a RWC final.
Because he didn’t throw one straight since he came on.
No. One. Jumped.
What every line out
Too difficult to grasp we're talking about the last lineout?
All 4 Amua fucked up by not throwing straight not just the last one.
Bahaha it wasn’t all Aumua’s fault. How does no one even jumping land on his shoulders. You’re just trying to deflect blame from poor coaching. Taylor was the shit throwing hooker in the two tests in England and we were lucky to get out of those tests without atleast one loss. Razor has a lot of work to do. The honeymoon is over.
He couldn’t hit fuck all tonight had a shocker
Terrible performance like a lot of them
TJ, Jordie just really poor.
Drop them all useless.@Chris said in All Blacks vs Argentina I - 10 August:
@Canes4life said in All Blacks vs Argentina I - 10 August:
@Chris said in All Blacks vs Argentina I - 10 August:
@antipodean said in All Blacks vs Argentina I - 10 August:
@Chris said in All Blacks vs Argentina I - 10 August:
@antipodean said in All Blacks vs Argentina I - 10 August:
@Chris said in All Blacks vs Argentina I - 10 August:
@antipodean said in All Blacks vs Argentina I - 10 August:
@Canes4life said in All Blacks vs Argentina I - 10 August:
@nostrildamus said in All Blacks vs Argentina I - 10 August:
Aumua took a great time to throw so badly
No one jumped though. Just piss poor all around. Horrible game overall by the ABs.
Why are people blaming Aumua for a lineout where he had no targets? The whole thing was a debacle and speaks volumes about the coaching and selecting.
Fucking abysmal. At least Fozzie got us to a RWC final.
Because he didn’t throw one straight since he came on.
No. One. Jumped.
What every line out
Too difficult to grasp we're talking about the last lineout?
All 4 Amua fucked up by not throwing straight not just the last one.
Bahaha it wasn’t all Aumua’s fault. How does no one even jumping land on his shoulders. You’re just trying to deflect blame from poor coaching. Taylor was the shit throwing hooker in the two tests in England and we were lucky to get out of those tests without atleast one loss. Razor has a lot of work to do. The honeymoon is over.
He couldn’t hit fuck all tonight had a shocker
Terrible performance like a lot of them
TJ, Jordie just really poor.
Drop them all useless.Drop Taylor and Blackadder aswell. No effect at all. Blackadder flying back like that as our enforcer and then missing a one on one tackle under our posts was just embarrassing. Taylor shouldn’t have been starting tonight, he was garbage in the first two tests. Maybe starting Aumua would have given him more confidence instead of throwing him in last minute when we were already under the pump.
Again, it falls on Razor with shit selections and shit tactics.
He chose not to select the form Super players like Sotutu, Love, Lakai, Ioane etc so he can fall on the sword when it all turns to shit for all I care.
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Not sure about DMac at 10. He has flashes of brilliance, but his game management never holds up.
Our game turns into a version of him. It's an unstructured game of touch rugby that doesn’t work against a good test-level organised defence.
Hello @His-Bobness. I had beers with you Phooey and MVJ at the "London" nigh on 20 years ago. Glad to see you've still got the great insights to the game.
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I wonder if we are missing mental skills guru Gilbert Enoka more than we realised we would.
Yes, we were physically overpowered but we froze at the end too. Execution of basic, controlled skills went to shit. Something really not right.
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Not sure about DMac at 10. He has flashes of brilliance, but his game management never holds up.
Our game turns into a version of him. It's an unstructured game of touch rugby that doesn’t work against a good test-level organised defence.
Hello @His-Bobness. I had beers with you Phooey and MVJ at the "London" nigh on 20 years ago. Glad to see you've still got the great insights to the game.
@Regex I remember that night!
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@canefan Yes, I also think this is what happens when you sell a ‘brand’ to private equity. His real bosses are the big money people sitting in New York with no emotional investment in the game and everything hanging on the need to make a quick profit.
@His-Bobness said in All Blacks vs Argentina I - 10 August:
@canefan Yes, I also think this is what happens when you sell a ‘brand’ to private equity. His real bosses are the big money people sitting in New York with no emotional investment in the game and everything hanging on the need to make a quick profit.
He also made comments aimed at other countries like SA, basically saying they needed to be more entertaining as well. I think he's missed the point about winning being pretty important
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They have replaced him with someone else. Not sure who
@DaGrubster Cerri Evans.
After that, I'd question his effectiveness and influence.
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@His-Bobness said in All Blacks vs Argentina I - 10 August:
@canefan Yes, I also think this is what happens when you sell a ‘brand’ to private equity. His real bosses are the big money people sitting in New York with no emotional investment in the game and everything hanging on the need to make a quick profit.
He also made comments aimed at other countries like SA, basically saying they needed to be more entertaining as well. I think he's missed the point about winning being pretty important
@canefan said in All Blacks vs Argentina I - 10 August:
@His-Bobness said in All Blacks vs Argentina I - 10 August:
@canefan Yes, I also think this is what happens when you sell a ‘brand’ to private equity. His real bosses are the big money people sitting in New York with no emotional investment in the game and everything hanging on the need to make a quick profit.
He also made comments aimed at other countries like SA, basically saying they needed to be more entertaining as well. I think he's missed the point about winning being pretty important
Yep, I reckon Blues fans were fairly well entertained this winter.
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This is not glib but you seriously have to wonder what they do for 10 days in the build-up.
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This is not glib but you seriously have to wonder what they do for 10 days in the build-up.
@BerniesCorner said in All Blacks vs Argentina I - 10 August:
This is not glib but you seriously have to wonder what they do for 10 days in the build-up.
If Razor says the players didn't do what they had practiced, your question is more than fair!
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This is not glib but you seriously have to wonder what they do for 10 days in the build-up.
@BerniesCorner said in All Blacks vs Argentina I - 10 August:
This is not glib but you seriously have to wonder what they do for 10 days in the build-up.
Judging by the results, they played a lot of one-touch Touch Rugby.
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@BerniesCorner said in All Blacks vs Argentina I - 10 August:
This is not glib but you seriously have to wonder what they do for 10 days in the build-up.
Judging by the results, they played a lot of one-touch Touch Rugby.
@Donsteppa said in All Blacks vs Argentina I - 10 August:
@BerniesCorner said in All Blacks vs Argentina I - 10 August:
This is not glib but you seriously have to wonder what they do for 10 days in the build-up.
Judging by the results, they played a lot of one-touch Touch Rugby.
Too much speed work not enough weights
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@Chris said in All Blacks vs Argentina I - 10 August:
@Canes4life said in All Blacks vs Argentina I - 10 August:
@Chris said in All Blacks vs Argentina I - 10 August:
@antipodean said in All Blacks vs Argentina I - 10 August:
@Chris said in All Blacks vs Argentina I - 10 August:
@antipodean said in All Blacks vs Argentina I - 10 August:
@Chris said in All Blacks vs Argentina I - 10 August:
@antipodean said in All Blacks vs Argentina I - 10 August:
@Canes4life said in All Blacks vs Argentina I - 10 August:
@nostrildamus said in All Blacks vs Argentina I - 10 August:
Aumua took a great time to throw so badly
No one jumped though. Just piss poor all around. Horrible game overall by the ABs.
Why are people blaming Aumua for a lineout where he had no targets? The whole thing was a debacle and speaks volumes about the coaching and selecting.
Fucking abysmal. At least Fozzie got us to a RWC final.
Because he didn’t throw one straight since he came on.
No. One. Jumped.
What every line out
Too difficult to grasp we're talking about the last lineout?
All 4 Amua fucked up by not throwing straight not just the last one.
Bahaha it wasn’t all Aumua’s fault. How does no one even jumping land on his shoulders. You’re just trying to deflect blame from poor coaching. Taylor was the shit throwing hooker in the two tests in England and we were lucky to get out of those tests without atleast one loss. Razor has a lot of work to do. The honeymoon is over.
He couldn’t hit fuck all tonight had a shocker
Terrible performance like a lot of them
TJ, Jordie just really poor.
Drop them all useless.Drop Taylor and Blackadder aswell. No effect at all. Blackadder flying back like that as our enforcer and then missing a one on one tackle under our posts was just embarrassing. Taylor shouldn’t have been starting tonight, he was garbage in the first two tests. Maybe starting Aumua would have given him more confidence instead of throwing him in last minute when we were already under the pump.
Again, it falls on Razor with shit selections and shit tactics.
He chose not to select the form Super players like Sotutu, Love, Lakai, Ioane etc so he can fall on the sword when it all turns to shit for all I care.
@Canes4life said in All Blacks vs Argentina I - 10 August:
@Chris said in All Blacks vs Argentina I - 10 August:
@Canes4life said in All Blacks vs Argentina I - 10 August:
@Chris said in All Blacks vs Argentina I - 10 August:
@antipodean said in All Blacks vs Argentina I - 10 August:
@Chris said in All Blacks vs Argentina I - 10 August:
@antipodean said in All Blacks vs Argentina I - 10 August:
@Chris said in All Blacks vs Argentina I - 10 August:
@antipodean said in All Blacks vs Argentina I - 10 August:
@Canes4life said in All Blacks vs Argentina I - 10 August:
@nostrildamus said in All Blacks vs Argentina I - 10 August:
Aumua took a great time to throw so badly
No one jumped though. Just piss poor all around. Horrible game overall by the ABs.
Why are people blaming Aumua for a lineout where he had no targets? The whole thing was a debacle and speaks volumes about the coaching and selecting.
Fucking abysmal. At least Fozzie got us to a RWC final.
Because he didn’t throw one straight since he came on.
No. One. Jumped.
What every line out
Too difficult to grasp we're talking about the last lineout?
All 4 Amua fucked up by not throwing straight not just the last one.
Bahaha it wasn’t all Aumua’s fault. How does no one even jumping land on his shoulders. You’re just trying to deflect blame from poor coaching. Taylor was the shit throwing hooker in the two tests in England and we were lucky to get out of those tests without atleast one loss. Razor has a lot of work to do. The honeymoon is over.
He couldn’t hit fuck all tonight had a shocker
Terrible performance like a lot of them
TJ, Jordie just really poor.
Drop them all useless.Drop Taylor and Blackadder aswell. No effect at all. Blackadder flying back like that as our enforcer and then missing a one on one tackle under our posts was just embarrassing. Taylor shouldn’t have been starting tonight, he was garbage in the first two tests. Maybe starting Aumua would have given him more confidence instead of throwing him in last minute when we were already under the pump.
Again, it falls on Razor with shit selections and shit tactics.
He chose not to select the form Super players like Sotutu, Love, Lakai, Ioane etc so he can fall on the sword when it all turns to shit for all I care.
Hahaha Hang on I will go get your dummy for you.
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The meltdowns here are a thing of beauty. Yes that was a cråp display but bloody hell.
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Some very absurd takes in this thread about various players.
I think the biggest issue with the ABs tonight was their mental fortitude in those last 20 minutes - but a lot of that comes down to experience. Taylor, Savea, Perenara and Barrett all have ample games under their belt but two of those four weren't on in the final quarter and Savea is below his best at the moment and saddled with the captaincy, which doesn't seem to suit him. This is a team that's lost Coles, Whitelock, Retallick, Barrett, Cane etc etc so it's no surprise wonder they struggled a bit compared to the experienced line-up that Argentina were able to call on (particularly in the forwards).
The All Blacks actually created plenty of good opportunities - look at the well-constructed tries they scored. The Pumas' scores were far more opportunistic and the bounce of the ball went their way, coupled with a few one-off errors from NZ players. A loss is still a loss but play that game again and I'm sure it goes a different way - I suppose we'll see next week.
I think Darry performed well (though I'm a bit surprised at how many plaudits he's received - try aside, Vaa'i was the better lock on the park throughout the game) which is great for NZ's depth.
Big questions still remain over the loose forwards. Cane isn't the long-term answer at 7 obviously but he's probably the right option for the rest of the Rugby Champs. Maybe a Finau, Cane, Savea trio will feature next week.
I think we saw once again why Ratima should be starting over Perenara (although hard to say who should be the bench option, given neither Perenara nor Hotham can give the team the quick delivery they need).
ALB probably didn't take his chance at 13 and I suspect Ioane will be back in the jersey for the rest of the tournament. 12 remains an issue - maybe just a mindset change needed for Barrett? As others have noted, he's got the size but seemingly not using it very effectively...
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Gracias chicos!
You have to give some credit to a gutsy Argentina. They took the opportunities that were given to them…on a platter mostly.
My sense is the ABs did what they are often are guilty of these days - not respecting the opposition, not respecting the ball, sacrificing structure and discipline for helter-skelter rugby, lacking pragmatism about taking three points when they are on offer, and playing loosey-goosey Super Rugby in the test arena.
Who do we blame for all that? There seems to be a lack of hard-heads in the coaching box and in the on-field leadership. For all his individual gifts, Savea is not a good skipper and seeks to win the game all on his own.
The ABs were 20-8 up at one stage and looked to be a try away from pulling away out of sight, but they let the Argentinians back in with sloppy, ultra-loose play that betrayed the old ‘we’re the Harlem Globetrotters of World Rugby and we can score more tries than you’ mentality.
Then when the pressure came on in the final quarter, they fell apart mentally. Loose and panicky passes, often with little pressure, wayward lineout throws, poor option-taking, and on it went. Same old car crash.
I don’t think Robertson is a bad coach, but I do wonder at the quality of his assistants and whether there are too many of them. It all seems too pally and collegiate. MacDonald has never impressed me, and I wonder what Hansen brings to the party.
In what was a familiar scenario, the whole AB game had a Marie Celeste element to it. There was a sense of nobody being at the wheel and you could see them drifting inexorably toward the rocks in slow motion. Yet the ABs thrashed Argentina in the WC semi-final and it’s tough to believe they suddenly became that bad, and Argentina that good in less than a year.
So it looks and smells like an attitude problem, a lack of leadership problem, an absence of test rugby pragmatism, and the old familiar trap of elevating the desire to put on a spectacle above the requirement to win the game.
@His-Bobness said in All Blacks vs Argentina I - 10 August:
It all seems too pally and collegiate
Good post
And especially agree with the above
Robertson had better right this ship and quickly. Hes lost a lot of goodwill by selecting lots of his Crusader mates (the bottom finishing NZ SRP team in case anyone has forgotten like Robertson). Even though he was asked in a interview and said he wouldn't do this but he can't help himself. He should have ensured he was totally beyond criticism on this front
Now he put himself in a position where he must win
So he needs to
Stop selecting his limited Crusader mates. Even not making 50/50 selection in a Crusaders favour to ensure he appears fair.
Change the selection process. It isn't working. It could have worked if he had better assistants but he hasn't
