All Blacks vs Argentina I
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@Jet
I've been posting on and off here for twenty years.I don't think I've read a better post than that.
I hope someone influential in NZ rugby gets to read every single word of that. Thank you!
@sparky said in All Blacks vs Argentina I - 10 August:
@Jet
I've been posting on and off here for twenty years.I don't think I've read a better post than that.
I hope someone influential in NZ rugby gets to read every single word of that. Thank you!
Nah bro. Following this advice will win you games and restore the fear of playing the ABs but at what cost? Just end up being villains in another movie featuring Matt Damon as a great bok loosie and an improbable Morgan Freeman playing a unifying South African leader in a green and gold six jersey.
Can’t squander the social media clout from performative shed cleaning on something as cheap as winning.
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There is a stench of 2004-2015 Wallabies off the Allblacks and has been since about 2018.
It harks back to when Beale, O'Connor, Ashely Cooper, Giteau et al had a different shirt on their back from week to week. Fullback one week, running the cutter the next. No specialists and no development of specialists. An a le carte menu at the selection table.
Our problem stems from the continued selection of two of my favourite Allblacks who are both former world players of the year. Ardie Savea and Beauden Barrett. Their presence has historically lead to selection headaches in both the forwards and backs. We end up filling in the blanks around them.
There was time where maybe one position in an Allblack squad was a talking point in a build up to a test week. Now the back row, back three, locks, centres and scrum halves are all up for discussion. And rightfully so. Predicted or desired lineups vary from person to person, in contrast to 2015 where maybe 14 of the 15 spots would be deemed a general consensus.
The initial rot as I see it, started in Lions test 2 in 2017 when SBW dropped the shoulder into Anthony Watson....red card ensued, game lost, 3rd test Jerome "we have a deal" Garces and the "Aura" has been steadily corroding from that day onwards. I see SBW's red card as a sliding doors moment, and we have been on the back foot ever since.
This rot was further compounded by Hansen staying on until 2019, doing the amazon documentary and getting high off his own supply, seeing himself as some sort of rugby savant. The dual pivot nonsense, omission of Laumape, dropping of Ben Smith and Barrett's selection at 6 in the semi.
After the 2019 exit (in my own personal opinion) it should have been the end of Barrett at 15, the end of Goodhue and ALB and the end of Perenara, to name but a few.
Then the Boks leave Super Rugby and we spend half the year playing touch footie against shite Aussie teams, belting them and thinking we are still the dogs bollox.
We then hire Hansens assistant who gives the captaincy to the very bloke who was dropped in the semi final of the 2019 World Cup, a selection he himself would have had a say in. Joined up thinking eh.
The avalanche of red and yellow cards continues and we go from being the most un-carded team in history to the most carded in the space of a few years.
Foster has a torrid time, admittedly during a difficult covid environment, but it cant be denied he set some unenviable records. After his tenure we still dont have a backrow and we now find ourselves again with ALB and Beauden Barrett out in the backline playing basketball and running sideways, a lesson I thought would have been learned post 2019.
There are also a few intangible things that I noticed from 2017 onwards which have contributed to our decline.
Our coaches rightly or wrongly are waaaaaaaay too nice in the media, particularly post match. If we get hatcheted then say we got fucking hatcheted. It wont give you this weeks loss back, but it will help you going forward. Similarly, the time wasting, tactical injuries and boot lace re-tieing, cheating and skullduggery has to be called out, and called out directly. Not in guarded language which Razor did today like Fozzie did before him. Stop trying to be so nice and so liked. Name the players and name the infraction. It's professional sport.
Rassie and Andy Farrell are putting us in the ha'penny place with their "big dick energy". Andy Farrell for example defended his sons millionth suspension for a shoulder to the head and did it with a straight face and called the media out for a witch hunt. Even though his son was bang to rights. They dont give an inch. Rassie single handedly turned the Lions series on its head with his video stunt. In 40 years people will look back and Rassie's record will speak for itself. Nobody will remember Foster for being civil.
Playing the Allblacks is nice these days, half full stadium, sedate crowd, and a team full of well manicured boy band types. There is no feral atmosphere, no foaming at the mouth coach and no grizzled men or leaders in the team. Savea's post match interview/presser was like watching a shy Catholic in the confession box.
We are beaten in the dugout, in the stands and on the pitch.
Similarly the media (im looking at you Kirwan, Goldie and friends) dont ask any hard questions any more or hold peoples feet to the fire. Every player gets a round of applause and a pat on the back. You never hear them say "TJ's pass is too slow", "this lad cant tackle". It's all pally pally and incestuous.
I was a Razor evangelist, and to be honest they HAD to give him the job with his record. What he has done since is on him and him alone. Selection looks like a dogs breakfast. Some of his interviews leave me uncomfortable too "we need to find our connection piece". Fuck off man......go out and smack the other team in the fucking mouths. 38 points at home to Argentina. Give me a break.
There are a few simple things that would go a long way to helping fix this. Jordan or Love is the fullback. End of Story. Sayonara TJ and Finlay forever, bye bye. Ratima, Roigard and Hotham going forward.
You cant have Papalii, Jacobsen, Blackadder and Cane in a squad. 2 of them have to go. Pick your poison.
Pick specialists. Pick big people , pick fast people. Stop picking Swiss army knife players.
The crest on the front is bigger than any name on the back.
@Jet you talk about 2015 stability, but how long did it take to get to that sort of stability? At least 3-4 years.
We are wanting stability when we’ve had another big exodus and that next crop are still very much inexperienced or haven’t been entrusted with the keys (yet).
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The captaincy was so important that it was literally the winning and losing of this game.
65 minutes, "Ok boys, we are doing pick n goes. Lets go"@BerniesCorner said in All Blacks vs Argentina I - 10 August:
The captaincy was so important that it was literally the winning and losing of this game.
65 minutes, "Ok boys, we are doing pick n goes. Lets go"Absolutely. I want a "Follow me boys, into the fire!" with a "let's keep our heads" attitude
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@sparky said in All Blacks vs Argentina I - 10 August:
@Jet
I've been posting on and off here for twenty years.I don't think I've read a better post than that.
I hope someone influential in NZ rugby gets to read every single word of that. Thank you!
Nah bro. Following this advice will win you games and restore the fear of playing the ABs but at what cost? Just end up being villains in another movie featuring Matt Damon as a great bok loosie and an improbable Morgan Freeman playing a unifying South African leader in a green and gold six jersey.
Can’t squander the social media clout from performative shed cleaning on something as cheap as winning.
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@Jet you talk about 2015 stability, but how long did it take to get to that sort of stability? At least 3-4 years.
We are wanting stability when we’ve had another big exodus and that next crop are still very much inexperienced or haven’t been entrusted with the keys (yet).
@ACT-Crusader said in All Blacks vs Argentina I - 10 August:
@Jet you talk about 2015 stability, but how long did it take to get to that sort of stability? At least 3-4 years.
We are wanting stability when we’ve had another big exodus and that next crop are still very much inexperienced or haven’t been entrusted with the keys (yet).
Stability not just in selection, but in philosophy, in principles. If you are going or coming back from a sabbatical then you should be on the outer, unless you are in the McCaw or Carter bracket of player.
They all think they are entitled to it now. Some of them are seeing out their golden years in the bloody black jersey (Beaudy) akin to Bob Dylan still touring, but not playing any of the old hits.Its simple. Get a 6 at 6, a fullback at fullback etc.
One week its Finau, one week its Blackadder, one week its Jacobsen etc.
When a guy goes down injured the next cab off the rank should be obvious to the coaches and fans. But it isnt.
Instead its jiggery pokery the whole time. Papalii gets hooked today, Blackadder moves to 7 and Sititi goes to 6. Two changes for the price of one. I wouldnt be surprised to see Scooter back at 6 at this stage.
All of the players are being done a disservice like this. And it has been going on for about 6 years.
Rieko Ioane should be out on the left wing and retired as soon as his legs are gone. Instead he is masquerading as a centre.
Beaudy is the ten, no he's the fullback, but comes into the line to interchange with Richie when he wants to be the ten, no now he will stay at 15 and give the keys solely to Mo'unga, now hes gone to Japan, oh now he's back.
ALB is a 12, then a 13, then in exile, now he's the 13 again.
ALB has 71 caps!!!!! Beaudy has 125!!!!!
It is preposterous.
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@ACT-Crusader said in All Blacks vs Argentina I - 10 August:
@Jet you talk about 2015 stability, but how long did it take to get to that sort of stability? At least 3-4 years.
We are wanting stability when we’ve had another big exodus and that next crop are still very much inexperienced or haven’t been entrusted with the keys (yet).
Stability not just in selection, but in philosophy, in principles. If you are going or coming back from a sabbatical then you should be on the outer, unless you are in the McCaw or Carter bracket of player.
They all think they are entitled to it now. Some of them are seeing out their golden years in the bloody black jersey (Beaudy) akin to Bob Dylan still touring, but not playing any of the old hits.Its simple. Get a 6 at 6, a fullback at fullback etc.
One week its Finau, one week its Blackadder, one week its Jacobsen etc.
When a guy goes down injured the next cab off the rank should be obvious to the coaches and fans. But it isnt.
Instead its jiggery pokery the whole time. Papalii gets hooked today, Blackadder moves to 7 and Sititi goes to 6. Two changes for the price of one. I wouldnt be surprised to see Scooter back at 6 at this stage.
All of the players are being done a disservice like this. And it has been going on for about 6 years.
Rieko Ioane should be out on the left wing and retired as soon as his legs are gone. Instead he is masquerading as a centre.
Beaudy is the ten, no he's the fullback, but comes into the line to interchange with Richie when he wants to be the ten, no now he will stay at 15 and give the keys solely to Mo'unga, now hes gone to Japan, oh now he's back.
ALB is a 12, then a 13, then in exile, now he's the 13 again.
ALB has 71 caps!!!!! Beaudy has 125!!!!!
It is preposterous.
@Jet everything you have described has happened before in the ABs. And with pretty successful teams.
Gibbes and Collins from week to week. Not the same player or approach to a game by any stretch.
Rodders to Lauaki from week to week. Very different number 8’s that offer strengths not aligned to a single philosophy of play.
I just don’t think it’s panic stations just yet.
Also welcome to the Fern (if you are indeed a newbie….)
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@Jet everything you have described has happened before in the ABs. And with pretty successful teams.
Gibbes and Collins from week to week. Not the same player or approach to a game by any stretch.
Rodders to Lauaki from week to week. Very different number 8’s that offer strengths not aligned to a single philosophy of play.
I just don’t think it’s panic stations just yet.
Also welcome to the Fern (if you are indeed a newbie….)
@ACT-Crusader said in All Blacks vs Argentina I - 10 August:
@Jet everything you have described has happened before in the ABs. And with pretty successful teams.
Gibbes and Collins from week to week. Not the same player or approach to a game by any stretch.
Rodders to Lauaki from week to week. Very different number 8’s that offer strengths not aligned to a single philosophy of play.
I just don’t think it’s panic stations just yet.
Also welcome to the Fern (if you are indeed a newbie….)
We have had Frizell, Finau, Jacobsen, Blackadder at 6 in our last 5 games.
Meanwhile the super rugby winning 6 is at home scratching his bollox.
While I do take your point...is it not fair to say that the allblack selection policy is akin to a Jackson Pollock painting over the last few years? Just fucking shit at a wall and seeing what sticks.
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@ACT-Crusader said in All Blacks vs Argentina I - 10 August:
@Jet everything you have described has happened before in the ABs. And with pretty successful teams.
Gibbes and Collins from week to week. Not the same player or approach to a game by any stretch.
Rodders to Lauaki from week to week. Very different number 8’s that offer strengths not aligned to a single philosophy of play.
I just don’t think it’s panic stations just yet.
Also welcome to the Fern (if you are indeed a newbie….)
We have had Frizell, Finau, Jacobsen, Blackadder at 6 in our last 5 games.
Meanwhile the super rugby winning 6 is at home scratching his bollox.
While I do take your point...is it not fair to say that the allblack selection policy is akin to a Jackson Pollock painting over the last few years? Just fucking shit at a wall and seeing what sticks.
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That must be some good shit!
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the good thing about the ABs slowly having become a good instead of an incredible team (circa 2010-2016) is that losses don't take an emotional toll on my well being anymore. Another loss? no problem, I'll go back to pretending rugby doesn't exist
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the good thing about the ABs slowly having become a good instead of an incredible team (circa 2010-2016) is that losses don't take an emotional toll on my well being anymore. Another loss? no problem, I'll go back to pretending rugby doesn't exist
@Tordah said in All Blacks vs Argentina I - 10 August:
the good thing about the ABs slowly having become a good instead of an incredible team (circa 2010-2016) is that losses don't take an emotional toll on my well being anymore. Another loss? no problem, I'll go back to pretending rugby doesn't exist
Yeah thanks Fozzie, was able to plumb the utility room instead of sitting around in a stupor.
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the good thing about the ABs slowly having become a good instead of an incredible team (circa 2010-2016) is that losses don't take an emotional toll on my well being anymore. Another loss? no problem, I'll go back to pretending rugby doesn't exist
@Tordah said in All Blacks vs Argentina I - 10 August:
the good thing about the ABs slowly having become a good instead of an incredible team (circa 2010-2016) is that losses don't take an emotional toll on my well being anymore. Another loss? no problem, I'll go back to pretending rugby doesn't exist
It's sad, but when we lose I don't even bother to watch it.
Games are usually 1am for me and I work the following day, so I wait to see the results before I download it.
It's hard to get motivated to watch when we lose, which happens too often the last few years. -
Well I got up this morning and felt good.
Razor has let us know it's not his fault, after the game he made it clear it was players, as that's not how they trained!! And Ryan just after halftime made sure we all knew how dunb he thought Reece was with a tap back.
So we will be right (Fozzie should of taken notice on gow you do it) -
There was a distinct difference in the attacking structures of the two teams. The ABs almost always went for the box kick inside their half which didn’t really pay off once, instead it cost us dearly with the Reece knock back.
We also really struggle to make any go forward ball through the backline, the out the back pass to DM often leaves us behind the gainline. This is possibly our biggest issue as we simply cannot build pressure by going forward.
Argentina/SA in contrast seem to have no issue going forward through direct and backline play. Argentina from memory put up very few box kicks compared to us.
Argentina did a NZ and simply carved up with turnover and messy ball, they waited for NZ to make mistakes and make errors and capitalised on them.
The NZ lineout was actually very good with Taylor so I have no idea why it fell apart with Aumua, perhaps the other change at lock and loose forward confused the unit.
Loose forward is another issue. Far too many times we were isolated and got turned over. You can tell when the half back and wingers etc are committing to rucks we have a problem with our ruck work.
Lots to work on but for me it’s our attack and how we go forward is the biggest issue and of course our inability to dominate up front.
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@Duluth said in All Blacks vs Argentina I - 10 August:
Honestly listening to this sounds like listening to aware children. They say the right things, but it's the excuses we've heard before for exactly the same transgressions. How can you not have patterns to exit? How do you not know to not throw passes to nobody? How do you not know that passing to someone without support is only going to put us under pressure and we'll likely give away a penalty as a result?
Let's be honest and say we lost this game more than our opposition won it because we placed ourselves under pressure with stupid or ineffective execution.
@antipodean said in All Blacks vs Argentina I - 10 August:
@Duluth said in All Blacks vs Argentina I - 10 August:
Honestly listening to this sounds like listening to aware children. They say the right things, but it's the excuses we've heard before for exactly the same transgressions. How can you not have patterns to exit? How do you not know to not throw passes to nobody? How do you not know that passing to someone without support is only going to put us under pressure and we'll likely give away a penalty as a result?
Let's be honest and say we lost this game more than our opposition won it because we placed ourselves under pressure with stupid or ineffective execution.
This was a big problem last night and a problem that has been around for a good few years now. We can't get momentum because of it. The Argies kicked off superbly. High deep kicks with determined chasers who pinned us in our 22. This is what teams have been doing to us because we have no way of effectively getting ourselves out of there. Our response is to maybe do one or two ineffective hit ups then use the half to put up a high ball (or kick to touch) or we'll give it one of our kickers to meekly punt it somewhere. It's not just an AB problem, this is a problem through out NZ rugby.
I don't really know what the answer is. I would love to see someone in the team that can kick us out of trouble but there is a lack of big kickers in NZ. Sullivan, Fihaki, and Stevenson spring to mind as exceptions but, apart from Sullivan, I don't see them having a future in Black. Jordie is not the answer. Every now and then he can pull off a big punt but he is not consistent and he is not accurate.
In a post full of good points @Jet mentioned the continued selection of B Barrett and Savea and having to fill in the pieces around them. Spot on. Both players upset the balance and neither one is currently good enough to justify that. It's time to move on from them and some others.
It's also time to move on from our game plan. It's not necessarily a Saders game plan, it's a New Zealand game plan of trying to play 'pretty' and running other teams ragged. Up until this year every team in NZ played a version of this. The Blues were a breath of fresh air and I was heartened a little to see Auckland and Northland play a more direct style in the opening round of the NPC. I hope that continues and we see more teams adapt to that way of playing.
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@Duluth said in All Blacks vs Argentina I - 10 August:
Honestly listening to this sounds like listening to aware children. They say the right things, but it's the excuses we've heard before for exactly the same transgressions. How can you not have patterns to exit? How do you not know to not throw passes to nobody? How do you not know that passing to someone without support is only going to put us under pressure and we'll likely give away a penalty as a result?
Let's be honest and say we lost this game more than our opposition won it because we placed ourselves under pressure with stupid or ineffective execution.
@antipodean said in All Blacks vs Argentina I - 10 August:
@Duluth said in All Blacks vs Argentina I - 10 August:
Honestly listening to this sounds like listening to aware children. They say the right things, but it's the excuses we've heard before for exactly the same transgressions. How can you not have patterns to exit? How do you not know to not throw passes to nobody? How do you not know that passing to someone without support is only going to put us under pressure and we'll likely give away a penalty as a result?
Let's be honest and say we lost this game more than our opposition won it because we placed ourselves under pressure with stupid or ineffective execution.
THIS.
I haven't watched the press conference, not sure I can stomach it - after watching the on-field post-match interview... which did not fill me with confidence that Scott knows what he's doing. Horribly vague answers, and completely ignoring/avoiding questions.
And the final question: "What are the first things you're going to be talking about on Monday?"
"Umm, yeah, I think we'll probably try to figure out what things we need to improve on" - repeated 3 times with slightly different phrasing each time.
Um, no shit Scott... THAT WAS THE QUESTION!Normally I'd expect a massive backlash in the next game, but... I'm not sure this time. I'll be hoping, but not assuming.
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the good thing about the ABs slowly having become a good instead of an incredible team (circa 2010-2016) is that losses don't take an emotional toll on my well being anymore. Another loss? no problem, I'll go back to pretending rugby doesn't exist
@Tordah said in All Blacks vs Argentina I - 10 August:
the good thing about the ABs slowly having become a good instead of an incredible team (circa 2010-2016) is that losses don't take an emotional toll on my well being anymore. Another loss? no problem, I'll go back to pretending rugby doesn't exist
This post sums up NZ in general I reckon. I don’t think Razor will be in any danger of being on Rugby News covers with the word “Guilty” in big red letters anytime soon.
I was never comfortable with the media jizz fest about him being appointed as some sort of saviour either, cringy as fuck. ( which I guess is not surprising for NZ media )
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Razor looked and sounded meek. I cant picture him giving them a half time spray at all.
The body language from himself and Ardie was (for want of a better adjective) Beta.
