All Blacks vs Argentina I
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@Chester-Draws you are reaching a bit now with the anti Fozzie stuff. Havili, McLeod, Ennor and Tupea were the next best midfielders, all given chances, and all were found to not be test standard. That's very unlikely to change regardless of who coaches the ABs. What was Fozzie meant to do? Keep selecting the "next best" in the line and hope someone magically goes well? The ABs is not a development side.
@No-Quarter said in All Blacks vs Argentina I - 10 August:
@Chester-Draws you are reaching a bit now with the anti Fozzie stuff. Havili, McLeod, Ennor and Tupea were the next best midfielders, all given chances, and all were found to not be test standard. That's very unlikely to change regardless of who coaches the ABs. What was Fozzie meant to do? Keep selecting the "next best" in the line and hope someone magically goes well? The ABs is not a development side.
Coaches get bagged for rotating too much and not playing their best team to develop combinations as well ,
I can actually remember that criticism of the midfield before they settled on Jordie Reiko ,
You cant win sometimes
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Are we really saying that Havili is an option at centre? He's a pretty marginal choice at 2nd-5.
Ennor got a eight games under Foster, most of them minor nations or as reserve. McLeod got one game. One.
Tupea I'll grant might have got a few more games, but for his injury. Although that's not necessarily a given as Foster got more conservative over time.
In reality we have at centre two experienced players, and then only very much noobs and one guy (Ennor) who has a bit of experience.
It's a little bit better at 2nd-5, but only a little bit, because our play got significantly better when the third of the experienced players was replaced.
So I don't get where you think we have lots of experience in the centres. Currently t's Ioane, Barrett, ALB and noobs, with the possible addition of Ennor if he gets back into form.
@Chester-Draws said in All Blacks vs Argentina I - 10 August:
So I don't get where you think we have lots of experience in the centres. Currently t's Ioane, Barrett, ALB and noobs, with the possible addition of Ennor if he gets back into form.
You've once again missed Tupaea who can cover 12 and 13 and has more experience than Ennor.
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@Chester-Draws said in All Blacks vs Argentina I - 10 August:
So I don't get where you think we have lots of experience in the centres. Currently t's Ioane, Barrett, ALB and noobs, with the possible addition of Ennor if he gets back into form.
You've once again missed Tupaea who can cover 12 and 13 and has more experience than Ennor.
@KiwiMurph said in All Blacks vs Argentina I - 10 August:
@Chester-Draws said in All Blacks vs Argentina I - 10 August:
So I don't get where you think we have lots of experience in the centres. Currently t's Ioane, Barrett, ALB and noobs, with the possible addition of Ennor if he gets back into form.
You've once again missed Tupaea who can cover 12 and 13 and has more experience than Ennor.
And Charlie Ngatai. He's only 33.
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There's a bit of irony in the fact that David Havili was a very good fullback for the Crusaders and was effectively forced to switch to the midfield. He was admittedly able to get a decent number of caps for the All Blacks at 12 but now, a few years on, he'd probably be in a better position if he'd stayed at fullback. Will Jordan is obviously a gun but does he have the kicking game and game management (arguably two of Havili's strengths) to play there for the All Blacks? Foster didn't think so. We'll know soon enough what Robertson thinks. Havili at his peak was a better fullback than Perofeta and probably Love (though both players still have plenty of time to improve, especially Love).
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There's a bit of irony in the fact that David Havili was a very good fullback for the Crusaders and was effectively forced to switch to the midfield. He was admittedly able to get a decent number of caps for the All Blacks at 12 but now, a few years on, he'd probably be in a better position if he'd stayed at fullback. Will Jordan is obviously a gun but does he have the kicking game and game management (arguably two of Havili's strengths) to play there for the All Blacks? Foster didn't think so. We'll know soon enough what Robertson thinks. Havili at his peak was a better fullback than Perofeta and probably Love (though both players still have plenty of time to improve, especially Love).
@Mr-Fish said in All Blacks vs Argentina I - 10 August:
We'll know soon enough what Robertson thinks
Robertson was asked earlier this week and said he sees Jordan as a fullback who can cover wing. Which aligns with how he selected the Crusaders.
It will be interesting how Jordan combines with DMac.
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@Mr-Fish said in All Blacks vs Argentina I - 10 August:
We'll know soon enough what Robertson thinks
Robertson was asked earlier this week and said he sees Jordan as a fullback who can cover wing. Which aligns with how he selected the Crusaders.
It will be interesting how Jordan combines with DMac.
@KiwiMurph said in All Blacks vs Argentina I - 10 August:
Robertson was asked earlier this week and said he sees Jordan as a fullback who can cover wing. Which aligns with how he selected the Crusaders.
So that means we currently have four fullbacks - Perofeta, Barrett, Love, and Jordan.
They should have picked Plummer to develop a second first-five because going back to Barrett is total back to the future vibes.
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four fullbacks
four hybrid opensidesthis is certainly some recipe. i can't wait to see what the master plan is
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@KiwiMurph said in All Blacks vs Argentina I - 10 August:
@Chester-Draws said in All Blacks vs Argentina I - 10 August:
So I don't get where you think we have lots of experience in the centres. Currently t's Ioane, Barrett, ALB and noobs, with the possible addition of Ennor if he gets back into form.
You've once again missed Tupaea who can cover 12 and 13 and has more experience than Ennor.
And Charlie Ngatai. He's only 33.
@nzzp said in All Blacks vs Argentina I - 10 August:
And Charlie Ngatai. He's only 33.
Easter already?
Then I raise a Bryce Heem. -
@Mr-Fish said in All Blacks vs Argentina I - 10 August:
We'll know soon enough what Robertson thinks
Robertson was asked earlier this week and said he sees Jordan as a fullback who can cover wing. Which aligns with how he selected the Crusaders.
It will be interesting how Jordan combines with DMac.
@KiwiMurph said in All Blacks vs Argentina I - 10 August:
@Mr-Fish said in All Blacks vs Argentina I - 10 August:
We'll know soon enough what Robertson thinks
Robertson was asked earlier this week and said he sees Jordan as a fullback who can cover wing. Which aligns with how he selected the Crusaders.
It will be interesting how Jordan combines with DMac.
Sure, but BB has been named as a 10 and has exclusively been used at fullback so there are no guarantees.
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@Chester-Draws you are reaching a bit now with the anti Fozzie stuff. Havili, McLeod, Ennor and Tupea were the next best midfielders, all given chances, and all were found to not be test standard. That's very unlikely to change regardless of who coaches the ABs. What was Fozzie meant to do? Keep selecting the "next best" in the line and hope someone magically goes well? The ABs is not a development side.
@No-Quarter said in All Blacks vs Argentina I - 10 August:
@Chester-Draws you are reaching a bit now with the anti Fozzie stuff. Havili, McLeod, Ennor and Tupea were the next best midfielders, all given chances, and all were found to not be test standard. That's very unlikely to change regardless of who coaches the ABs. What was Fozzie meant to do? Keep selecting the "next best" in the line and hope someone magically goes well? The ABs is not a development side.
I actually think it is. It’s pretty hard to develop a test level player from just Super rugby (separate conversation about quality of the super rugby competition). Players need time at test level for the coaches to know if they are actually test level.
For fans it’s pretty simple:
“He just needs time/opportunity” - means player didn’t set the world on fire but I like him and think he’s an AB.“He’s not up to it” - means player didn’t set the world on fire but I think someone else should be there.
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yeah i have made the point before that only the very very best arrive looking to the manor born. The vast majority need time, and consistent time, to work it out.
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@No-Quarter said in All Blacks vs Argentina I - 10 August:
@Chester-Draws you are reaching a bit now with the anti Fozzie stuff. Havili, McLeod, Ennor and Tupea were the next best midfielders, all given chances, and all were found to not be test standard. That's very unlikely to change regardless of who coaches the ABs. What was Fozzie meant to do? Keep selecting the "next best" in the line and hope someone magically goes well? The ABs is not a development side.
I actually think it is. It’s pretty hard to develop a test level player from just Super rugby (separate conversation about quality of the super rugby competition). Players need time at test level for the coaches to know if they are actually test level.
For fans it’s pretty simple:
“He just needs time/opportunity” - means player didn’t set the world on fire but I like him and think he’s an AB.“He’s not up to it” - means player didn’t set the world on fire but I think someone else should be there.
@ACT-Crusader said in All Blacks vs Argentina I - 10 August:
@No-Quarter said in All Blacks vs Argentina I - 10 August:
@Chester-Draws you are reaching a bit now with the anti Fozzie stuff. Havili, McLeod, Ennor and Tupea were the next best midfielders, all given chances, and all were found to not be test standard. That's very unlikely to change regardless of who coaches the ABs. What was Fozzie meant to do? Keep selecting the "next best" in the line and hope someone magically goes well? The ABs is not a development side.
I actually think it is. It’s pretty hard to develop a test level player from just Super rugby (separate conversation about quality of the super rugby competition). Players need time at test level for the coaches to know if they are actually test level.
There are development sides and development sides though i.e. George Bell vs Billy Proctor.
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@KiwiMurph said in All Blacks vs Argentina I - 10 August:
@Mr-Fish said in All Blacks vs Argentina I - 10 August:
We'll know soon enough what Robertson thinks
Robertson was asked earlier this week and said he sees Jordan as a fullback who can cover wing. Which aligns with how he selected the Crusaders.
It will be interesting how Jordan combines with DMac.
Sure, but BB has been named as a 10 and has exclusively been used at fullback so there are no guarantees.
@Mr-Fish said in All Blacks vs Argentina I - 10 August:
@KiwiMurph said in All Blacks vs Argentina I - 10 August:
@Mr-Fish said in All Blacks vs Argentina I - 10 August:
We'll know soon enough what Robertson thinks
Robertson was asked earlier this week and said he sees Jordan as a fullback who can cover wing. Which aligns with how he selected the Crusaders.
It will be interesting how Jordan combines with DMac.
Sure, but BB has been named as a 10 and has exclusively been used at fullback so there are no guarantees.
DMac is an 80 minute player and his experience as a test 10 is still quite limited, so I’m liking that they have given him 80 in the first 3 tests. We have an experienced back up if need be, but building DMac’s body of work is critical to this next 3 years.
DC was playing 80 minutes more so than not with Beaudie on the bench for example as the back up.
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Sam Darry, who earned his first test cap when he took the field as a substitute against Fiji in San Diego last weekend, will likely be required to sit on the bench. Josh Lord has been called in as cover until Barrett is fit.
From Stuff with ScoBa out indefinitely.
Has Darry jumped Lord? I thought Lord was both injured and preferred.
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Sam Darry, who earned his first test cap when he took the field as a substitute against Fiji in San Diego last weekend, will likely be required to sit on the bench. Josh Lord has been called in as cover until Barrett is fit.
From Stuff with ScoBa out indefinitely.
Has Darry jumped Lord? I thought Lord was both injured and preferred.
@nzzp said in All Blacks vs Argentina I - 10 August:
Has Darry jumped Lord? I thought Lord was both injured and preferred.
Lord played his first game in months last Friday while Darry is fit to play. I am sure they are targeting the EOYT for his return but he has been involved in the earlier AB camps.
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Sam Darry, who earned his first test cap when he took the field as a substitute against Fiji in San Diego last weekend, will likely be required to sit on the bench. Josh Lord has been called in as cover until Barrett is fit.
From Stuff with ScoBa out indefinitely.
Has Darry jumped Lord? I thought Lord was both injured and preferred.
@nzzp said in All Blacks vs Argentina I - 10 August:
I thought Lord was both injured and preferred.
I know you didn't mean it that way, but that seems like an apt and ironic comment on All Black selection concepts this year
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@nzzp said in All Blacks vs Argentina I - 10 August:
I thought Lord was both injured and preferred.
I know you didn't mean it that way, but that seems like an apt and ironic comment on All Black selection concepts this year
@nostrildamus said in All Blacks vs Argentina I - 10 August:
@nzzp said in All Blacks vs Argentina I - 10 August:
I thought Lord was both injured and preferred.
I know you didn't mean it that way, but that seems like an apt and ironic comment on All Black selection concepts this year
Taking 3 locks and having Darry in the train-on squad was weird. That was the basis to infer they didn't want to hand him a contract - and seemed to be waiting for Lord to come back from injury.
Selections have been a bit unusual, particularly in composition of the squad.
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@ACT-Crusader said in All Blacks vs Argentina I - 10 August:
@No-Quarter said in All Blacks vs Argentina I - 10 August:
@Chester-Draws you are reaching a bit now with the anti Fozzie stuff. Havili, McLeod, Ennor and Tupea were the next best midfielders, all given chances, and all were found to not be test standard. That's very unlikely to change regardless of who coaches the ABs. What was Fozzie meant to do? Keep selecting the "next best" in the line and hope someone magically goes well? The ABs is not a development side.
I actually think it is. It’s pretty hard to develop a test level player from just Super rugby (separate conversation about quality of the super rugby competition). Players need time at test level for the coaches to know if they are actually test level.
There are development sides and development sides though i.e. George Bell vs Billy Proctor.
@reprobate said in All Blacks vs Argentina I - 10 August:
@ACT-Crusader said in All Blacks vs Argentina I - 10 August:
@No-Quarter said in All Blacks vs Argentina I - 10 August:
@Chester-Draws you are reaching a bit now with the anti Fozzie stuff. Havili, McLeod, Ennor and Tupea were the next best midfielders, all given chances, and all were found to not be test standard. That's very unlikely to change regardless of who coaches the ABs. What was Fozzie meant to do? Keep selecting the "next best" in the line and hope someone magically goes well? The ABs is not a development side.
I actually think it is. It’s pretty hard to develop a test level player from just Super rugby (separate conversation about quality of the super rugby competition). Players need time at test level for the coaches to know if they are actually test level.
There are development sides and development sides though i.e. George Bell vs Billy Proctor.
Yeah, that was my point, it's not a team where you can take a player that hasn't offered enough at Super level and try to develop him into a test player. The coaches still have to win. I think nearly everyone that showed something the level below got a crack at the midfield, and even some that didn't (e.g. McLeod). The fact is none of them are test class players, there's only so much a coach can do when the cattle isn't there.
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@Mr-Fish said in All Blacks vs Argentina I - 10 August:
@KiwiMurph said in All Blacks vs Argentina I - 10 August:
@Mr-Fish said in All Blacks vs Argentina I - 10 August:
We'll know soon enough what Robertson thinks
Robertson was asked earlier this week and said he sees Jordan as a fullback who can cover wing. Which aligns with how he selected the Crusaders.
It will be interesting how Jordan combines with DMac.
Sure, but BB has been named as a 10 and has exclusively been used at fullback so there are no guarantees.
DMac is an 80 minute player and his experience as a test 10 is still quite limited, so I’m liking that they have given him 80 in the first 3 tests. We have an experienced back up if need be, but building DMac’s body of work is critical to this next 3 years.
DC was playing 80 minutes more so than not with Beaudie on the bench for example as the back up.
@ACT-Crusader said in All Blacks vs Argentina I - 10 August:
@Mr-Fish said in All Blacks vs Argentina I - 10 August:
@KiwiMurph said in All Blacks vs Argentina I - 10 August:
@Mr-Fish said in All Blacks vs Argentina I - 10 August:
We'll know soon enough what Robertson thinks
Robertson was asked earlier this week and said he sees Jordan as a fullback who can cover wing. Which aligns with how he selected the Crusaders.
It will be interesting how Jordan combines with DMac.
Sure, but BB has been named as a 10 and has exclusively been used at fullback so there are no guarantees.
DMac is an 80 minute player and his experience as a test 10 is still quite limited, so I’m liking that they have given him 80 in the first 3 tests. We have an experienced back up if need be, but building DMac’s body of work is critical to this next 3 years.
DC was playing 80 minutes more so than not with Beaudie on the bench for example as the back up.
I agree - but the selectors would have likely known from the moment that the squad was picked that Barrett was more likely to get minutes at 15 than 10.
I'm not saying Jordan won't be used primarily at fullback, I just don't think that Razor's comments are conclusive. What works at Super Rugby level doesn't necessarily work at Test level and Robertson might decide that it's more important to have a second playmaker at fullback (a la Perofeta, Barrett or Love), particularly against South Africa, than someone like Jordan.
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@nostrildamus said in All Blacks vs Argentina I - 10 August:
@nzzp said in All Blacks vs Argentina I - 10 August:
I thought Lord was both injured and preferred.
I know you didn't mean it that way, but that seems like an apt and ironic comment on All Black selection concepts this year
Taking 3 locks and having Darry in the train-on squad was weird. That was the basis to infer they didn't want to hand him a contract - and seemed to be waiting for Lord to come back from injury.
Selections have been a bit unusual, particularly in composition of the squad.
@nzzp said in All Blacks vs Argentina I - 10 August:
@nostrildamus said in All Blacks vs Argentina I - 10 August:
@nzzp said in All Blacks vs Argentina I - 10 August:
I thought Lord was both injured and preferred.
I know you didn't mean it that way, but that seems like an apt and ironic comment on All Black selection concepts this year
Taking 3 locks and having Darry in the train-on squad was weird. That was the basis to infer they didn't want to hand him a contract - and seemed to be waiting for Lord to come back from injury.
Selections have been a bit unusual, particularly in composition of the squad.
I think Darry was insurance for Tuipuluto given he was under a cloud heading into the SR final. So not unusual to have 3 locks (plus a lock/6 in Finau) in a small squad.
