All Blacks vs Argentina I
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@darylmitchell said in All Blacks vs Argentina I:
@antipodean said in All Blacks vs Argentina I:
I kind of expected this tbh when you look at Razor's assistants. Did anyone look at Holland and McDonald and think to themselves this is a star studded team?
I'm starting to think Razor is a bit like Eddie Jones as a head coach, in that he only works with subordinates who either think similarly to him or will tow the line, doesn't appear to be interested in strong personalities who may challenge him.
two years ago Schmidt couldn't work with Razor because of philosophical differences in their coaching approach, Brown was probably the same, hence he would rather coach with SA than the pinnacle for any NZ coach - the ABs.
You certainly don’t know Razor at all if you think that it is so far over the top it’s not funny.
@Chris maybe so, i've read guys who've know him like O'Gara say he's unconventional and is a bit of a mad genius, i was just speculating there because Eddie Jones was similar in a way, a real out of the box thinker and great coach but had a tendency to surround himself with sub-par assistants.
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@Chris maybe so, i've read guys who've know him like O'Gara say he's unconventional and is a bit of a mad genius, i was just speculating there because Eddie Jones was similar in a way, a real out of the box thinker and great coach but had a tendency to surround himself with sub-par assistants.
@darylmitchell I would think Sotutu is the opposite of a strong personality from what I've seen/heard.
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@antipodean said in All Blacks vs Argentina I:
I kind of expected this tbh when you look at Razor's assistants. Did anyone look at Holland and McDonald and think to themselves this is a star studded team?
I'm starting to think Razor is a bit like Eddie Jones as a head coach, in that he only works with subordinates who either think similarly to him or will tow the line, doesn't appear to be interested in strong personalities who may challenge him.
two years ago Schmidt couldn't work with Razor because of philosophical differences in their coaching approach, Brown was probably the same, hence he would rather coach with SA than the pinnacle for any NZ coach - the ABs.
@darylmitchell said in All Blacks vs Argentina I:
two years ago Schmidt couldn't work with Razor
Because he was already in foster's team and he felt morally wrong going with a replacement, nothing to do with Razor
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There’s a good 500-600 messages I need catch up on here in so I’m thinking I’ll flag that and drop my 2cents even though i have no doubt it’s already been said.
All blacks lacked an enforcer/big ball carrier BIG TIME. The closest thing we have to that is Finau, are we just going to give up on Finau after 2 tests against England? If so, what a joke. He’s finding his feet with the new coaching system just as much as anyone else and he deserves to be shown some more loyalty and belief there. A lot of people may not like it, but he’s the best 6 we have in the squad. The only true 6 too.
A small gripe with how returning players have been handled. We included Josh Lord and Will Jordan in the matchday 23, I can understand Lord because of the locking injuries but he has only played 1, maybe half of a NPC pre season game for Taranaki and it showed. The guy looked lost.
Will Jordan, he has only played half a NPC pre season game for Ta$man. The coaches said he is one of the only players who could return to rugby and be thrust straight back into the test arena, I beg to differ. There is a major play from the coaches there, one of confidence because they have coached the guy before but what sort of message is that sending to the rest of that team?
Taking off Dalton when we did was a huge mistake. All of a sudden we had no genuine 7 on the field in a close game and in test rugby, in my opinion if you don’t have a specialist 7 on the field you’re going to be in trouble. Terrible substitution management there. It was either Blackadder or Ardie who should have come off for Sititi.
Next week I won’t be surprised if we see the addition of Sam Cane to bring some leadership into the mix with Barrett still being out, it was clearly missed.
One of the worst AB’s performances I’ve seen in a long long time. Confident we will bounce back next week in Auckland. Let’s get behind the boys and hope the right squad balance is found.
Ratima needs to start.
@Landers92 said in All Blacks vs Argentina I:
All blacks lacked an enforcer/big ball carrier BIG TIME. The closest thing we have to that is Finau, are we just going to give up on Finau after 2 tests against England? If so, what a joke. He’s finding his feet with the new coaching system just as much as anyone else and he deserves to be shown some more loyalty and belief there. A lot of people may not like it, but he’s the best 6 we have in the squad. The only true 6 too.
I think you are jumping at shadows here. If they wanted to drop him they had a chance to when they named the RC squad.
He’s still very young and i have no doubts are in the plans for the coaches. There were some signs in the England series that I think the coaches will keep working with in training and when that test opportunity comes again - and it will - he will be a better player for it.
We all knew blindside was going to be a concern heading into this season because there was not a ready made player to throw the keys too like we have at 7 with Papali’i (and Cane not being available to start the season). Hell we all held our collective breaths with Shannon sort of expecting the worst but hoping for the best of an unideal situation.
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@Chris maybe so, i've read guys who've know him like O'Gara say he's unconventional and is a bit of a mad genius, i was just speculating there because Eddie Jones was similar in a way, a real out of the box thinker and great coach but had a tendency to surround himself with sub-par assistants.
@darylmitchell said in All Blacks vs Argentina I:
@Chris maybe so, i've read guys who've know him like O'Gara say he's unconventional and is a bit of a mad genius, i was just speculating there because Eddie Jones was similar in a way, a real out of the box thinker and great coach but had a tendency to surround himself with sub-par assistants.
I have meet Razor a couple of times, I wouldn’t say I know him very well, not as well as another person on the Fern who is close to Razor.
But I know a few players who have been coached by Razor and some people who have coached with him and they paint a completely different picture,Yes he is unconventional as I understand it. -
@Landers92 said in All Blacks vs Argentina I:
All blacks lacked an enforcer/big ball carrier BIG TIME. The closest thing we have to that is Finau, are we just going to give up on Finau after 2 tests against England? If so, what a joke. He’s finding his feet with the new coaching system just as much as anyone else and he deserves to be shown some more loyalty and belief there. A lot of people may not like it, but he’s the best 6 we have in the squad. The only true 6 too.
I think you are jumping at shadows here. If they wanted to drop him they had a chance to when they named the RC squad.
He’s still very young and i have no doubts are in the plans for the coaches. There were some signs in the England series that I think the coaches will keep working with in training and when that test opportunity comes again - and it will - he will be a better player for it.
We all knew blindside was going to be a concern heading into this season because there was not a ready made player to throw the keys too like we have at 7 with Papali’i (and Cane not being available to start the season). Hell we all held our collective breaths with Shannon sort of expecting the worst but hoping for the best of an unideal situation.
@ACT-Crusader said in All Blacks vs Argentina I:
We all knew blindside was going to be a concern heading into this season because there was not a ready made player to throw the keys too like we have at 7 with Papali’i (and Cane not being available to start the season).
You mean a big tall 6 with AB experience who can take lineouts, bowl over players, tackle hard, and know how to win comps? That sort of player?
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@ACT-Crusader said in All Blacks vs Argentina I:
We all knew blindside was going to be a concern heading into this season because there was not a ready made player to throw the keys too like we have at 7 with Papali’i (and Cane not being available to start the season).
You mean a big tall 6 with AB experience who can take lineouts, bowl over players, tackle hard, and know how to win comps? That sort of player?
@nostrildamus said in All Blacks vs Argentina I:
@ACT-Crusader said in All Blacks vs Argentina I:
We all knew blindside was going to be a concern heading into this season because there was not a ready made player to throw the keys too like we have at 7 with Papali’i (and Cane not being available to start the season).
You mean a big tall 6 with AB experience who can take lineouts, bowl over players, tackle hard, and know how to win comps? That sort of player?
No there wasn’t.
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@nostrildamus said in All Blacks vs Argentina I:
@ACT-Crusader said in All Blacks vs Argentina I:
We all knew blindside was going to be a concern heading into this season because there was not a ready made player to throw the keys too like we have at 7 with Papali’i (and Cane not being available to start the season).
You mean a big tall 6 with AB experience who can take lineouts, bowl over players, tackle hard, and know how to win comps? That sort of player?
No there wasn’t.
@ACT-Crusader said in All Blacks vs Argentina I:
You mean a big tall 6 with AB experience who can take lineouts, bowl over players, tackle hard, and know how to win comps? That sort of player?
No there wasn’t.
Is that you Mr Ryan?
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@ACT-Crusader said in All Blacks vs Argentina I:
You mean a big tall 6 with AB experience who can take lineouts, bowl over players, tackle hard, and know how to win comps? That sort of player?
No there wasn’t.
Is that you Mr Ryan?
@nostrildamus said in All Blacks vs Argentina I:
@ACT-Crusader said in All Blacks vs Argentina I:
You mean a big tall 6 with AB experience who can take lineouts, bowl over players, tackle hard, and know how to win comps? That sort of player?
No there wasn’t.
Is that you Mr Ryan?
No, I’m Steve Hansen. No, I’m actually Fozzie.
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@Landers92 said in All Blacks vs Argentina I:
All blacks lacked an enforcer/big ball carrier BIG TIME. The closest thing we have to that is Finau, are we just going to give up on Finau after 2 tests against England? If so, what a joke. He’s finding his feet with the new coaching system just as much as anyone else and he deserves to be shown some more loyalty and belief there. A lot of people may not like it, but he’s the best 6 we have in the squad. The only true 6 too.
I think you are jumping at shadows here. If they wanted to drop him they had a chance to when they named the RC squad.
He’s still very young and i have no doubts are in the plans for the coaches. There were some signs in the England series that I think the coaches will keep working with in training and when that test opportunity comes again - and it will - he will be a better player for it.
We all knew blindside was going to be a concern heading into this season because there was not a ready made player to throw the keys too like we have at 7 with Papali’i (and Cane not being available to start the season). Hell we all held our collective breaths with Shannon sort of expecting the worst but hoping for the best of an unideal situation.
@ACT-Crusader said in All Blacks vs Argentina I:
@Landers92 said in All Blacks vs Argentina I:
All blacks lacked an enforcer/big ball carrier BIG TIME. The closest thing we have to that is Finau, are we just going to give up on Finau after 2 tests against England? If so, what a joke. He’s finding his feet with the new coaching system just as much as anyone else and he deserves to be shown some more loyalty and belief there. A lot of people may not like it, but he’s the best 6 we have in the squad. The only true 6 too.
I think you are jumping at shadows here. If they wanted to drop him they had a chance to when they named the RC squad.
He’s still very young and i have no doubts are in the plans for the coaches. There were some signs in the England series that I think the coaches will keep working with in training and when that test opportunity comes again - and it will - he will be a better player for it.
We all knew blindside was going to be a concern heading into this season because there was not a ready made player to throw the keys too like we have at 7 with Papali’i (and Cane not being available to start the season). Hell we all held our collective breaths with Shannon sort of expecting the worst but hoping for the best of an unideal situation.
I think my whole comment still stands and I don’t really see your argument. He is the best 6 in the team and has been replaced at 6 by someone who is a 6.5 and is only starting because he’s played in Razors teams previously. It’s a complete comfort pick and a guy who has already peaked. Finau has so much room to grow, why not grow him now and continue to get test match experience along the way? Hell, Akira should be in there over Blackadder anyway.
- We lack an enforcer/big 6.
- Finau was dropped from the 23(not completely from the squad like you’re saying).
So the whole jumping at shadows thing… not really sure about that.
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@ACT-Crusader said in All Blacks vs Argentina I:
@Landers92 said in All Blacks vs Argentina I:
All blacks lacked an enforcer/big ball carrier BIG TIME. The closest thing we have to that is Finau, are we just going to give up on Finau after 2 tests against England? If so, what a joke. He’s finding his feet with the new coaching system just as much as anyone else and he deserves to be shown some more loyalty and belief there. A lot of people may not like it, but he’s the best 6 we have in the squad. The only true 6 too.
I think you are jumping at shadows here. If they wanted to drop him they had a chance to when they named the RC squad.
He’s still very young and i have no doubts are in the plans for the coaches. There were some signs in the England series that I think the coaches will keep working with in training and when that test opportunity comes again - and it will - he will be a better player for it.
We all knew blindside was going to be a concern heading into this season because there was not a ready made player to throw the keys too like we have at 7 with Papali’i (and Cane not being available to start the season). Hell we all held our collective breaths with Shannon sort of expecting the worst but hoping for the best of an unideal situation.
I think my whole comment still stands and I don’t really see your argument. He is the best 6 in the team and has been replaced at 6 by someone who is a 6.5 and is only starting because he’s played in Razors teams previously. It’s a complete comfort pick and a guy who has already peaked. Finau has so much room to grow, why not grow him now and continue to get test match experience along the way? Hell, Akira should be in there over Blackadder anyway.
- We lack an enforcer/big 6.
- Finau was dropped from the 23(not completely from the squad like you’re saying).
So the whole jumping at shadows thing… not really sure about that.
@Landers92 said in All Blacks vs Argentina I:
Hell, Akira should be in there over Blackadder anyway.
If only this Akira fellow was a big tall 6 with AB experience who can take lineouts, bowl over players, tackle hard, and knows how to be part of a winning team, he'd sound ideal!
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@Landers92 said in All Blacks vs Argentina I:
Hell, Akira should be in there over Blackadder anyway.
If only this Akira fellow was a big tall 6 with AB experience who can take lineouts, bowl over players, tackle hard, and knows how to be part of a winning team, he'd sound ideal!
@nostrildamus said in All Blacks vs Argentina I:
@Landers92 said in All Blacks vs Argentina I:
Hell, Akira should be in there over Blackadder anyway.
If only this Akira fellow was a big tall 6 with AB experience who can take lineouts, bowl over players, tackle hard, and knows how to be part of a winning team, he'd sound ideal!
oh and bonus point if he picks fights with scrappy halfbacks..
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@ACT-Crusader said in All Blacks vs Argentina I:
@Landers92 said in All Blacks vs Argentina I:
All blacks lacked an enforcer/big ball carrier BIG TIME. The closest thing we have to that is Finau, are we just going to give up on Finau after 2 tests against England? If so, what a joke. He’s finding his feet with the new coaching system just as much as anyone else and he deserves to be shown some more loyalty and belief there. A lot of people may not like it, but he’s the best 6 we have in the squad. The only true 6 too.
I think you are jumping at shadows here. If they wanted to drop him they had a chance to when they named the RC squad.
He’s still very young and i have no doubts are in the plans for the coaches. There were some signs in the England series that I think the coaches will keep working with in training and when that test opportunity comes again - and it will - he will be a better player for it.
We all knew blindside was going to be a concern heading into this season because there was not a ready made player to throw the keys too like we have at 7 with Papali’i (and Cane not being available to start the season). Hell we all held our collective breaths with Shannon sort of expecting the worst but hoping for the best of an unideal situation.
I think my whole comment still stands and I don’t really see your argument. He is the best 6 in the team and has been replaced at 6 by someone who is a 6.5 and is only starting because he’s played in Razors teams previously. It’s a complete comfort pick and a guy who has already peaked. Finau has so much room to grow, why not grow him now and continue to get test match experience along the way? Hell, Akira should be in there over Blackadder anyway.
- We lack an enforcer/big 6.
- Finau was dropped from the 23(not completely from the squad like you’re saying).
So the whole jumping at shadows thing… not really sure about that.
@Landers92 said in All Blacks vs Argentina I:
@ACT-Crusader said in All Blacks vs Argentina I:
@Landers92 said in All Blacks vs Argentina I:
All blacks lacked an enforcer/big ball carrier BIG TIME. The closest thing we have to that is Finau, are we just going to give up on Finau after 2 tests against England? If so, what a joke. He’s finding his feet with the new coaching system just as much as anyone else and he deserves to be shown some more loyalty and belief there. A lot of people may not like it, but he’s the best 6 we have in the squad. The only true 6 too.
I think you are jumping at shadows here. If they wanted to drop him they had a chance to when they named the RC squad.
He’s still very young and i have no doubts are in the plans for the coaches. There were some signs in the England series that I think the coaches will keep working with in training and when that test opportunity comes again - and it will - he will be a better player for it.
We all knew blindside was going to be a concern heading into this season because there was not a ready made player to throw the keys too like we have at 7 with Papali’i (and Cane not being available to start the season). Hell we all held our collective breaths with Shannon sort of expecting the worst but hoping for the best of an unideal situation.
I think my whole comment still stands and I don’t really see your argument. He is the best 6 in the team and has been replaced at 6 by someone who is a 6.5 and is only starting because he’s played in Razors teams previously. It’s a complete comfort pick and a guy who has already peaked. Finau has so much room to grow, why not grow him now and continue to get test match experience along the way? Hell, Akira should be in there over Blackadder anyway.
- We lack an enforcer/big 6.
- Finau was dropped from the 23(not completely from the squad like you’re saying).
So the whole jumping at shadows thing… not really sure about that.
There’s no evidence to suggest that they have “given up after 2 tests”, so not sure why you suggest that.
It’s not unusual if history is anything to go by that new coaching set ups try different players to see where things are at. Happened under Mitchell, Henry, Hansen and Fozzie. Different styles of players were played in the same position.
I expect a bit of rotation as they find the best lineup, especially in the loose forwards given the number of loosies in the squad.
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I'm disappointed as anyone on here but some of the gossip and speculation in this thread is bs.
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I still haven't watched the game, but from looking at the stats, Paps seemed to have a very non-like-him game - I know he was subbed at 65 minutes, but he was well last in tackles for the loosies. It looks to me (from only looking at the stats), that we have two very similar 7s out there. Blackadder leads for tackles (by some distance) with stats that look very Sam Cane like (lots of tackles, lots of carries, not many metres) except for the three penalties.
It looks like all the running came from Ardie - according to ESPN he had 19 carries for 51 metres, and it looks like that is about the same as every other forward combined. I don't see why they picked supposed 'running' props but haven't used them. Williams (at least) is ready for the next step, let's go, we need more ball carrying.
WTF happened to Sititi? Stats say he was penalized 3 times in 15 minutes? Fucking ouch. I wonder if throwing a totally green kid into a game with 15 left when we are in shit is quite the method of bringing him along?
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Third quarter rewatch.
Tighties again good in lineouts and all but one maul. Both starting pack and replacement props generated some go forward. In particular, four or five pick 'n goes generated big metres before Telea try.
Three penalties which had a large element of luck generated all of Puma's 13 points in period.
First, Darry on the carry is tackled. The cleaner, Lomax, was delayed avoiding a previous tackler still on the ground. Darry's tackler was slow to roll, but made just enough effort to avoid Gardner penalising, and lets Matera in. Another day the clean is made or tackler caught not rolling away;
Second, the Niggles penalty for being bumped off by Pumas prop;
Third, Paps makes excellent covering tackle, but falls awkwardly and unable to roll away. Very similar to first of the penalties above but didn't go our way.Pumas deserve tremendous plaudits for their extraordinary skill in coverting three marginal penalties way out from our line into 13 points!!
Quite apart from the excellent goal kicks, Carreras also set up the maul try by landing the penalty punt 5m from AB goal line. An unconventional maul, which ABs clearly hadn't contemplated, and Pumas overloaded the gap between Lomax and Darry, who was defending the dummy jump by Puma 8.
13/13Ratima on at 56:30 and Ofa/Newell at 58.30. Immediaely DMac getting ball wider and quicker.
Also, at this juncture the forward pod 'screening' DMac starts to rumble and make short offloads, which worked well.Bad DMac missed penalty at 58:30.
At 59:30 classic Jordan break one out from ruck, and ABs right on Puma line before being called back for Ratima kick, which Gardner adjudged a knock on 'becuase he wasn't in control when his leg connected' [is that a Law?].
In summary, ABs had the better of about 15 of the 20 minutes, but the three penalties awarded to Pumas left the scoring 10-13 to Pumas.
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Third quarter rewatch.
Tighties again good in lineouts and all but one maul. Both starting pack and replacement props generated some go forward. In particular, four or five pick 'n goes generated big metres before Telea try.
Three penalties which had a large element of luck generated all of Puma's 13 points in period.
First, Darry on the carry is tackled. The cleaner, Lomax, was delayed avoiding a previous tackler still on the ground. Darry's tackler was slow to roll, but made just enough effort to avoid Gardner penalising, and lets Matera in. Another day the clean is made or tackler caught not rolling away;
Second, the Niggles penalty for being bumped off by Pumas prop;
Third, Paps makes excellent covering tackle, but falls awkwardly and unable to roll away. Very similar to first of the penalties above but didn't go our way.Pumas deserve tremendous plaudits for their extraordinary skill in coverting three marginal penalties way out from our line into 13 points!!
Quite apart from the excellent goal kicks, Carreras also set up the maul try by landing the penalty punt 5m from AB goal line. An unconventional maul, which ABs clearly hadn't contemplated, and Pumas overloaded the gap between Lomax and Darry, who was defending the dummy jump by Puma 8.
13/13Ratima on at 56:30 and Ofa/Newell at 58.30. Immediaely DMac getting ball wider and quicker.
Also, at this juncture the forward pod 'screening' DMac starts to rumble and make short offloads, which worked well.Bad DMac missed penalty at 58:30.
At 59:30 classic Jordan break one out from ruck, and ABs right on Puma line before being called back for Ratima kick, which Gardner adjudged a knock on 'becuase he wasn't in control when his leg connected' [is that a Law?].
In summary, ABs had the better of about 15 of the 20 minutes, but the three penalties awarded to Pumas left the scoring 10-13 to Pumas.
@pakman I can't find anything on needing to be in control of the ball to make a kick. But then again I can't find anything on what constitutes a lick either (looked to me like it glanced off just above the knee before the foot and I thought a kick was from below the knee).
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@pakman I can't find anything on needing to be in control of the ball to make a kick. But then again I can't find anything on what constitutes a lick either (looked to me like it glanced off just above the knee before the foot and I thought a kick was from below the knee).
@Bones I'm pretty sure the knee or shin is a legal kick.
From first principles I thought propelling the ball forward, other than by a kick, only became a knock on if the ball touched something else, being the ground, another player, the posts or even the ref.
So if you, for example, caught the ball before it touched anything else it wasn't a knock on.
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@Bones I'm pretty sure the knee or shin is a legal kick.
From first principles I thought propelling the ball forward, other than by a kick, only became a knock on if the ball touched something else, being the ground, another player, the posts or even the ref.
So if you, for example, caught the ball before it touched anything else it wasn't a knock on.
@pakman on the former, I recall it coming up when Los did his off the knee chip and it got clarified after.
The latter, that was my understanding as well, don't recall anything about control, just the ball travelling forward and hitting something other than you before you can regain.
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I agree with the thrust of what Chris Jones was saying here. What was remarkable about the first Test was the fragility of the All Blacks and seeing players with many Test caps get so badly wrong what should be basic skills for professional rugby players to execute. Slapdash.
