All Blacks EOYT
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@brodean said in All Blacks EOYT:
Sititi is an exciting talent but let's not forget that he struggled in the collisions against SA like he did in the Super Rugby final and in all those instances he was part of a losing team.
If being in a winning team is so important then: Caleb Ralph over Jonah Lomu, Adrian Cashmore over Cullen, Reuben Thorne over Jerry Collins, any number of dogshit halfbacks over Aaron Smith etc etc.
I think Sititi should be in the team but I think his appraisal should be more measured at this stage
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@brodean said in All Blacks EOYT:
Sititi is an exciting talent but let's not forget that he struggled in the collisions against SA like he did in the Super Rugby final and in all those instances he was part of a losing team.
He's stood out against Australia, done OK against SA as the game developed, and failed big time against Argentina. He was a big part of that Argentina loss giving away 3 penalties in 20 minutes.
Sotutu is also a generational talent - arguably the most talented loose forward for creating tries in the last 10 years. Ultimately rugby is about scoring more tries.
I think you're misremembering the SA game. Sititi missed a few tackles, which was poor, but he definitely didn't struggle with the collisions.
I remember Sititi and our other loosies getting smashed in the collisions especially for the first quarter.
Sititi is a guy with fancy footwork who is quick off the mark, good ball skills, high involvement. He doesn't really smash people.
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Without Papali'i, Sotutu wouldn't have had the season he did. The foundation of the Blues carry game close in and winning collisions, winning the breakdown, and the best defense, was built on Papali'i.
He hit the most rucks and made the most tackles of any NZ player in Super Rugby.
@brodean said in All Blacks EOYT:
Without Papali'i, Sotutu wouldn't have had the season he did. The foundation of the Blues carry game close in and winning collisions, winning the breakdown, and the best defense, was built on Papali'i.
He hit the most rucks and made the most tackles of any NZ player in Super Rugby.
Those stats might be true, but they're not entirely accurate.
At the end of the regular season, Dalton wasn't in the (whole Super comp) top 10 for tackles made - he (and LJ etc) played finals so moved up the list. He isn't in the top 10 for tackles / 80 min, though that list is dominated by guys who played a lot fewer minutes - with the notable exception of the clear #1 tackler, Tizzano.
Don't get me wrong, he is a tackling machine and a big part of the Blues success, but you are over-egging it a little. Hell poor old RR was a big part of the Blues success and can't even make the AB XV. -
I remember Sititi and our other loosies getting smashed in the collisions especially for the first quarter.
Sititi is a guy with fancy footwork who is quick off the mark, good ball skills, high involvement. He doesn't really smash people.
@brodean agreed on Sititi. Great little player, fast feet, acceleration and good body position enable him to make ground in traffic - he's not a bruiser.
He is being over-hyped a bit, but I think that's mostly because we've had a lack of ball carriers in the pack for so long - everyone is just a bit more suprised than they should be that all our forwards don't run like Owen Franks for a change. If we end up trotting out Sam Cane on this tour and putting Barrett on the flank too, well fuck me I'll just about lose my shit. -
The least Razor could have done was give Hoskins a game to see if he could be an asset in black because he represents a point of difference from our other loosies, especially after the year he had. If he'd played and not done well no one could argue he didn't give him his deserved shot. His attitude is foolish and wasteful.
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@brodean said in All Blacks EOYT:
Without Papali'i, Sotutu wouldn't have had the season he did. The foundation of the Blues carry game close in and winning collisions, winning the breakdown, and the best defense, was built on Papali'i.
He hit the most rucks and made the most tackles of any NZ player in Super Rugby.
Those stats might be true, but they're not entirely accurate.
At the end of the regular season, Dalton wasn't in the (whole Super comp) top 10 for tackles made - he (and LJ etc) played finals so moved up the list. He isn't in the top 10 for tackles / 80 min, though that list is dominated by guys who played a lot fewer minutes - with the notable exception of the clear #1 tackler, Tizzano.
Don't get me wrong, he is a tackling machine and a big part of the Blues success, but you are over-egging it a little. Hell poor old RR was a big part of the Blues success and can't even make the AB XV.On Papali'i I think you underestimate the importance of durability and performance for the full 80 minutes over the season. Papali'i was making key plays in the final minutes of games. Getting back to make a tackle or winning a turnover.
Papali'i was one of the few All Blacks to play over a 1000 minutes. You need cornerstone players like that to produce week in week out wins. For example he's rested against the Crusaders and the Blues lose that game.
Remember the Blues dominated possession over the course of the season winning 55% to 65% most games so it's actually very impressive that he was still the highest tackler
He was super consistent performing his role to a high level with minimal errors.
https://www.rugbypass.com/plus/the-stats-show-the-club-v-country-wounds-may-never-heal/
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If true fuck off then, sooner rather than later if you'retaking up space for a promising young loosie who could be playing NPC, and don't let the door hit you on the arse.
@booboo said in All Blacks EOYT:
If true fuck off then, sooner rather than later if you'retaking up space for a promising young loosie who could be playing NPC, and don't let the door hit you on the arse.
I mean I guess if that's how we want to treat our most talented players then sure, let's just repeatedly snub them from selection for even the wider squad despite being the stand out performers at Super, then when they have the human reaction of being disappointed and so look at all their options, just tell them to fuck off. Then at the same time a great idea would be to select other loosies that are not up to the job, get outplayed every single week by every other loose forward trio, and even select players that spend more time injured than playing. This really sounds like a recipe for success, especially down in NZ where financially we are struggling to keep all our talent at home. Fucking genius stuff, really is, won't hurt the ABs at all, we've just been on fire this season.
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Interesting situation Sotutu is in, in all fairness.
It's a gamble either way. Does he get capped by the ABs where he may not end up being part of their plans going forward, or does he chuck his eggs into the England basket, where he's basically starting from scratch in a whole new environment?
I think, whether he was available or not for this EOYT, it's fair to say that the selectors have him way down the pecking order and it's probably unlikely to change, so I could see why the English scene could be tempting for him (still not guaranteed an England spot).
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Interesting situation Sotutu is in, in all fairness.
It's a gamble either way. Does he get capped by the ABs where he may not end up being part of their plans going forward, or does he chuck his eggs into the England basket, where he's basically starting from scratch in a whole new environment?
I think, whether he was available or not for this EOYT, it's fair to say that the selectors have him way down the pecking order and it's probably unlikely to change, so I could see why the English scene could be tempting for him (still not guaranteed an England spot).
@African-Monkey said in All Blacks EOYT:
It's a gamble either way. Does he get capped by the ABs where he may not end up being part of their plans going forward, or does he chuck his eggs into the England basket, where he's basically starting from scratch in a whole new environment
Context: in NZ outside of ABs he'll be on what - $200k for Super? Mabye $300k all in?
In UK he'd be on presumably double that comfortably - with the opportunity for $$$ if he makes the English squad. Financially it's a no brainer.
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@African-Monkey said in All Blacks EOYT:
It's a gamble either way. Does he get capped by the ABs where he may not end up being part of their plans going forward, or does he chuck his eggs into the England basket, where he's basically starting from scratch in a whole new environment
Context: in NZ outside of ABs he'll be on what - $200k for Super? Mabye $300k all in?
In UK he'd be on presumably double that comfortably - with the opportunity for $$$ if he makes the English squad. Financially it's a no brainer.
@nzzp said in All Blacks EOYT:
@African-Monkey said in All Blacks EOYT:
It's a gamble either way. Does he get capped by the ABs where he may not end up being part of their plans going forward, or does he chuck his eggs into the England basket, where he's basically starting from scratch in a whole new environment
Context: in NZ outside of ABs he'll be on what - $200k for Super? Mabye $300k all in?
In UK he'd be on presumably double that comfortably - with the opportunity for $$$ if he makes the English squad. Financially it's a no brainer.
But I think he would have stayed if he'd been given a fair shake
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Given the potential shortness of careers, I know what I'd tell him if he were my son. And I fucking hate England.
Given the rumors floating around about him too - that he is a log - which have been referenced (introduced) on this forum by posters with very strong sauce connections to the AB panel, it is likely very disheartening and this isn't a big community. I can also understand why a player might decide to double (or more) their income in a context where their potential upside gets a bit more recognition.
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@African-Monkey said in All Blacks EOYT:
It's a gamble either way. Does he get capped by the ABs where he may not end up being part of their plans going forward, or does he chuck his eggs into the England basket, where he's basically starting from scratch in a whole new environment
Context: in NZ outside of ABs he'll be on what - $200k for Super? Mabye $300k all in?
In UK he'd be on presumably double that comfortably - with the opportunity for $$$ if he makes the English squad. Financially it's a no brainer.
@nzzp said in All Blacks EOYT:
@African-Monkey said in All Blacks EOYT:
It's a gamble either way. Does he get capped by the ABs where he may not end up being part of their plans going forward, or does he chuck his eggs into the England basket, where he's basically starting from scratch in a whole new environment
Context: in NZ outside of ABs he'll be on what - $200k for Super? Mabye $300k all in?
In UK he'd be on presumably double that comfortably - with the opportunity for $$$ if he makes the English squad. Financially it's a no brainer.
Is this actually still the case? English clubs bleeding money (I mean I have no doubt Sotutu only goes over there if offered a wedge and some guarantees by the RFU - which would happen) and Super Rugby salaries were increasing with the Silverlake deal.
Only a guess, but I reckon Sotutu could well be on $400k+?
All of the top ABs are on at least $700k, so I would imagine a fringe guy like Sotutu would have agreed a healthy contract when signing earlier this year.
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Based on the last numbers I have seen the top tier of SR + PU contracts would give you $250K ($195K + $55K). Two veteran PU players can earn a bit more for their PU contract ($85K) but they might not be SR players. There are incentives built into the contracts so the potential to earn more. For the top ABs to earn closer to $1M the majority of their income has to be from a NZR "AB contract". As I've said numerous times, while the NZR centralised contract system has advantages, the payment structure is upside down. When you add in assembly fees for the ABs it is a nice earner.
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I wouldn't hold it against Sototu if he did defect to the enemy, but it sits uneasy with me that a player can switch allegiances like that. I lnow it's the rules as they stand now, but I think an English parent is stretching things a bit given he has already played for NZ.
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Oh look....
FFS
Hoskins Sotutu is on the radar of Gallagher Premiership giants Saracens and Leicester Tigers after speaking to England coach Steve Borthwick about switching his international allegiance from the All Blacks. The 2024 Super Rugby Pacific player of the year, who won the last of his 14 Test caps against England at Twickenham in November 2022, recently turned down the chance of an All Blacks recall for their autumn tour of Europe. All Blacks coach Scott Robertson is maintaining the party line that Sotutu, who also qualifies for Fiji, has a knee injury. However, it is an open secret that he has had talks with England boss Borthwick about playing for the Red Rose.@KiwiMurph said in All Blacks EOYT:
Oh look....
FFS
Hoskins Sotutu is on the radar of Gallagher Premiership giants Saracens and Leicester Tigers after speaking to England coach Steve Borthwick about switching his international allegiance from the All Blacks. The 2024 Super Rugby Pacific player of the year, who won the last of his 14 Test caps against England at Twickenham in November 2022, recently turned down the chance of an All Blacks recall for their autumn tour of Europe. All Blacks coach Scott Robertson is maintaining the party line that Sotutu, who also qualifies for Fiji, has a knee injury. However, it is an open secret that he has had talks with England boss Borthwick about playing for the Red Rose.Any actual evidence for any of this?
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Sititi is an exciting talent but let's not forget that he struggled in the collisions against SA like he did in the Super Rugby final and in all those instances he was part of a losing team.
He's stood out against Australia, done OK against SA as the game developed, and failed big time against Argentina. He was a big part of that Argentina loss giving away 3 penalties in 20 minutes.
Sotutu is also a generational talent - arguably the most talented loose forward for creating tries in the last 10 years. Ultimately rugby is about scoring more tries.
@brodean said in All Blacks EOYT:
Sititi is an exciting talent but let's not forget that he struggled in the collisions against SA like he did in the Super Rugby final and in all those instances he was part of a losing team.
He's stood out against Australia, done OK against SA as the game developed, and failed big time against Argentina. He was a big part of that Argentina loss giving away 3 penalties in 20 minutes.
Sotutu is also a generational talent - arguably the most talented loose forward for creating tries in the last 10 years. Ultimately rugby is about scoring more tries.
Yip when I think of generational talents, the names McCaw Carter Lomu and Sotutu roll off the tongue.
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Personally as a Kiwi I could never envisage playing for England or Australia. Or any other country really.
@Billy-Tell neither, BUT, I've also not been in the position to have to actually make that decision if someone was waving a big old cheque in front of me to do so.
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@brodean said in All Blacks EOYT:
Sititi is an exciting talent but let's not forget that he struggled in the collisions against SA like he did in the Super Rugby final and in all those instances he was part of a losing team.
He's stood out against Australia, done OK against SA as the game developed, and failed big time against Argentina. He was a big part of that Argentina loss giving away 3 penalties in 20 minutes.
Sotutu is also a generational talent - arguably the most talented loose forward for creating tries in the last 10 years. Ultimately rugby is about scoring more tries.
Yip when I think of generational talents, the names McCaw Carter Lomu and Sotutu roll off the tongue.
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@booboo said in All Blacks EOYT:
If true fuck off then, sooner rather than later if you'retaking up space for a promising young loosie who could be playing NPC, and don't let the door hit you on the arse.
I mean I guess if that's how we want to treat our most talented players then sure, let's just repeatedly snub them from selection for even the wider squad despite being the stand out performers at Super, then when they have the human reaction of being disappointed and so look at all their options, just tell them to fuck off. Then at the same time a great idea would be to select other loosies that are not up to the job, get outplayed every single week by every other loose forward trio, and even select players that spend more time injured than playing. This really sounds like a recipe for success, especially down in NZ where financially we are struggling to keep all our talent at home. Fucking genius stuff, really is, won't hurt the ABs at all, we've just been on fire this season.
@No-Quarter said in All Blacks EOYT:
@booboo said in All Blacks EOYT:
If true fuck off then, sooner rather than later if you'retaking up space for a promising young loosie who could be playing NPC, and don't let the door hit you on the arse.
I mean I guess if that's how we want to treat our most talented players then sure, let's just repeatedly snub them from selection for even the wider squad despite being the stand out performers at Super, then when they have the human reaction of being disappointed and so look at all their options, just tell them to fuck off. Then at the same time a great idea would be to select other loosies that are not up to the job, get outplayed every single week by every other loose forward trio, and even select players that spend more time injured than playing. This really sounds like a recipe for success, especially down in NZ where financially we are struggling to keep all our talent at home. Fucking genius stuff, really is, won't hurt the ABs at all, we've just been on fire this season.
Nah. Not convinced.
