All Blacks 2025
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Both Sititi and Savea have been used as a lineout target with success, but I wouldn't want three short loose forwards either. The key for the loose forward trio, as always, will be balance. That third loose forward needs to be someone who hits rucks and cleans because that isn't the strength of either Savea or Sititi. Otherwise, we are expecting a lot from the locks and props to do just that.
@Bovidae said in All Blacks 2025:
Both Sititi and Savea have been used as a lineout target with success, but I wouldn't want three short loose forwards either. The key for the loose forward trio, as always, will be balance. That third loose forward needs to be someone who hits rucks and cleans because that isn't the strength of either Savea or Sititi. Otherwise, we are expecting a lot from the locks and props to do just that.
Interestingly, Joe Schmidt was on The Breakdown this week and said Ardie is a better lineout target than you'd expect for a man of his height, because he's such a dynamic jumper.
They had Schmidt and Andrew Goodman on mainly talking about the Lions tour, but Schmidt also talked a bit about Super rugby and NZ players. A better than usual episode.
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@frugby said in All Blacks 2025:
It should be remembered that the guy dropping out of the loose forward trio is Sam Cane - who, for all his criticisms hits as hard as anyone in the tackle, and did the dirty work. Ardie played at 7 will somewhat fill that void, but I still think they will be looking for a grafter - preferably with some meat on them. Could easily be Lakai at 8...
A backrow of Savea, Lakai and Sititi secures no lineout ball. You need a Hoskins and Samipeni sized individual in there. Preferably two.
@antipodean said in All Blacks 2025:
@frugby said in All Blacks 2025:
It should be remembered that the guy dropping out of the loose forward trio is Sam Cane - who, for all his criticisms hits as hard as anyone in the tackle, and did the dirty work. Ardie played at 7 will somewhat fill that void, but I still think they will be looking for a grafter - preferably with some meat on them. Could easily be Lakai at 8...
A backrow of Savea, Lakai and Sititi secures no lineout ball. You need a Hoskins and Samipeni sized individual in there. Preferably two.
No point picking someone just because they are big though. Samipeni hasn't exactly nailed down the blindside jersey for the Chiefs, and there is no point discussing Sotutu.
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@Bones said in All Blacks 2025:
@Frank said in All Blacks 2025:
Ah Kuoi has a good workrate and size for a 6.
This could be his best position at int. level.
is he quick enough?Can't see him being any slower than Kaino, Grace, Blackadder, Finau, etc. Plus Vaai, Savea, Sititi are no slouches.
Kaino was in 100m final at St. Kent’s, but had to yield to Joe Rocks.
@pakman said in All Blacks 2025:
@Bones said in All Blacks 2025:
@Frank said in All Blacks 2025:
Ah Kuoi has a good workrate and size for a 6.
This could be his best position at int. level.
is he quick enough?Can't see him being any slower than Kaino, Grace, Blackadder, Finau, etc. Plus Vaai, Savea, Sititi are no slouches.
Kaino was in 100m final at St. Kent’s, but had to yield to Joe Rocks.
That Kaino made a couple of appearances (if that?) and was swiftly dropped.
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@Bovidae said in All Blacks 2025:
Both Sititi and Savea have been used as a lineout target with success, but I wouldn't want three short loose forwards either. The key for the loose forward trio, as always, will be balance. That third loose forward needs to be someone who hits rucks and cleans because that isn't the strength of either Savea or Sititi. Otherwise, we are expecting a lot from the locks and props to do just that.
Interestingly, Joe Schmidt was on The Breakdown this week and said Ardie is a better lineout target than you'd expect for a man of his height, because he's such a dynamic jumper.
They had Schmidt and Andrew Goodman on mainly talking about the Lions tour, but Schmidt also talked a bit about Super rugby and NZ players. A better than usual episode.
@Chris-B said in All Blacks 2025:
@Bovidae said in All Blacks 2025:
Both Sititi and Savea have been used as a lineout target with success, but I wouldn't want three short loose forwards either. The key for the loose forward trio, as always, will be balance. That third loose forward needs to be someone who hits rucks and cleans because that isn't the strength of either Savea or Sititi. Otherwise, we are expecting a lot from the locks and props to do just that.
Interestingly, Joe Schmidt was on The Breakdown this week and said Ardie is a better lineout target than you'd expect for a man of his height, because he's such a dynamic jumper.
They had Schmidt and Andrew Goodman on mainly talking about the Lions tour, but Schmidt also talked a bit about Super rugby and NZ players. A better than usual episode.
A strong vertical leap is less relevant with lifting though isn't it ?
With Ardies leg drive it doesn't surprise me in the slightest he is spring heeled though.
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@Chris-B said in All Blacks 2025:
@Bovidae said in All Blacks 2025:
Both Sititi and Savea have been used as a lineout target with success, but I wouldn't want three short loose forwards either. The key for the loose forward trio, as always, will be balance. That third loose forward needs to be someone who hits rucks and cleans because that isn't the strength of either Savea or Sititi. Otherwise, we are expecting a lot from the locks and props to do just that.
Interestingly, Joe Schmidt was on The Breakdown this week and said Ardie is a better lineout target than you'd expect for a man of his height, because he's such a dynamic jumper.
They had Schmidt and Andrew Goodman on mainly talking about the Lions tour, but Schmidt also talked a bit about Super rugby and NZ players. A better than usual episode.
A strong vertical leap is less relevant with lifting though isn't it ?
With Ardies leg drive it doesn't surprise me in the slightest he is spring heeled though.
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@MN5 I guess the dynamism helps.
You can beat the opposition jumper with speed rather than height.
I'd guess he's more effective at the front of the lineout.
@Chris-B said in All Blacks 2025:
@MN5 I guess the dynamism helps.
You can beat the opposition jumper with speed rather than height.
I'd guess he's more effective at the front of the lineout.
Definitely. I remember reading that Michael Jones and Jonah were also huge leapers ( again, not surprising )
But yeah, as @Bones says it risks negating all his other talents.
It's not like Australia ever got Izzy Folau to jump in a lineout.
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Yeah Savea is a v good lineout target, but it would be foolish to use him there when his best work is on the ground.
@Bones said in All Blacks 2025:
Yeah Savea is a v good lineout target, but it would be foolish to use him there when his best work is on the ground.
That's why I'm liking your thinking on Ah Koui, great line-out option as a 6, hits hard and seems like a guy that loves the niggle. Would certainly allow Savea and Sititi to play more of their natural games. Someone tell Clayton to give him a shot there this week against Moana.
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@MN5 I guess the dynamism helps.
You can beat the opposition jumper with speed rather than height.
I'd guess he's more effective at the front of the lineout.
@Chris-B said in All Blacks 2025:
@MN5 I guess the dynamism helps.
You can beat the opposition jumper with speed rather than height.
I'd guess he's more effective at the front of the lineout.
Lifters have to get in position too though, and they are invariably the bottleneck.
It's a minor help, in that the lifting job is easier if you have good upward momentum. -
@Chris-B said in All Blacks 2025:
@MN5 I guess the dynamism helps.
You can beat the opposition jumper with speed rather than height.
I'd guess he's more effective at the front of the lineout.
Definitely. I remember reading that Michael Jones and Jonah were also huge leapers ( again, not surprising )
But yeah, as @Bones says it risks negating all his other talents.
It's not like Australia ever got Izzy Folau to jump in a lineout.
@MN5 said in All Blacks 2025:
@Chris-B said in All Blacks 2025:
@MN5 I guess the dynamism helps.
You can beat the opposition jumper with speed rather than height.
I'd guess he's more effective at the front of the lineout.
Definitely. I remember reading that Michael Jones and Jonah were also huge leapers ( again, not surprising )
But yeah, as @Bones says it risks negating all his other talents.
It's not like Australia ever got Izzy Folau to jump in a lineout.
Probably only use him a couple of times a game though, so I wouldn't be too worried about that.
First job is to secure the ball and it helps to have some good options.
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@antipodean said in All Blacks 2025:
@frugby said in All Blacks 2025:
It should be remembered that the guy dropping out of the loose forward trio is Sam Cane - who, for all his criticisms hits as hard as anyone in the tackle, and did the dirty work. Ardie played at 7 will somewhat fill that void, but I still think they will be looking for a grafter - preferably with some meat on them. Could easily be Lakai at 8...
A backrow of Savea, Lakai and Sititi secures no lineout ball. You need a Hoskins and Samipeni sized individual in there. Preferably two.
No point picking someone just because they are big though. Samipeni hasn't exactly nailed down the blindside jersey for the Chiefs, and there is no point discussing Sotutu.
@frugby said in All Blacks 2025:
@antipodean said in All Blacks 2025:
@frugby said in All Blacks 2025:
It should be remembered that the guy dropping out of the loose forward trio is Sam Cane - who, for all his criticisms hits as hard as anyone in the tackle, and did the dirty work. Ardie played at 7 will somewhat fill that void, but I still think they will be looking for a grafter - preferably with some meat on them. Could easily be Lakai at 8...
A backrow of Savea, Lakai and Sititi secures no lineout ball. You need a Hoskins and Samipeni sized individual in there. Preferably two.
No point picking someone just because they are big though. Samipeni hasn't exactly nailed down the blindside jersey for the Chiefs, and there is no point discussing Sotutu.
Well I'm not prescribing names with my point. Substitute Parker for Finau if you want, the point remains that a Test backrow requires big munters who can take lineouts.
Finau is a very good lineout loose forward.
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@antipodean said in All Blacks 2025:
@frugby said in All Blacks 2025:
It should be remembered that the guy dropping out of the loose forward trio is Sam Cane - who, for all his criticisms hits as hard as anyone in the tackle, and did the dirty work. Ardie played at 7 will somewhat fill that void, but I still think they will be looking for a grafter - preferably with some meat on them. Could easily be Lakai at 8...
A backrow of Savea, Lakai and Sititi secures no lineout ball. You need a Hoskins and Samipeni sized individual in there. Preferably two.
No point picking someone just because they are big though. Samipeni hasn't exactly nailed down the blindside jersey for the Chiefs, and there is no point discussing Sotutu.
@frugby said in All Blacks 2025:
@antipodean said in All Blacks 2025:
@frugby said in All Blacks 2025:
It should be remembered that the guy dropping out of the loose forward trio is Sam Cane - who, for all his criticisms hits as hard as anyone in the tackle, and did the dirty work. Ardie played at 7 will somewhat fill that void, but I still think they will be looking for a grafter - preferably with some meat on them. Could easily be Lakai at 8...
A backrow of Savea, Lakai and Sititi secures no lineout ball. You need a Hoskins and Samipeni sized individual in there. Preferably two.
No point picking someone just because they are big though. Samipeni hasn't exactly nailed down the blindside jersey for the Chiefs, and there is no point discussing Sotutu.
I wouldn't get hung up if your are on bench or starting for the chiefs , Mcmillian has used more rotation than other teams plus looking at who can lift the team off the bench.
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@Nepia said in All Blacks 2025:
@Canes4life said in All Blacks 2025:
Devan Flanders could be in the conversation by the end of Super. Hopefully he comes back from his long-term injury with the same form he showed in 2024. He's the reason Howden went down to the Landers, he has the size for a test 6, and has the mobility, skillset and speed required at the next level. Would like to see more physicality in his game though, hopefully he can show that when he comes back.
He's having a decent shot at the Blackadder route to AB selection. But, he may lack a red stripe on his jersey for to be completely successful.
I feel like he ticks all the boxes but obviously needs to get back on the park. The only real concern I have is his physical presence on defence but I feel like he wasn't far off last year. Notably that game against the Drua in Fiji last year he really stood out as the dominant Canes loosie that day. Just needs to consistently dominate, he's definitely at peak age now so hopefully he can come back strong.
@Canes4life said in All Blacks 2025:
@Nepia said in All Blacks 2025:
@Canes4life said in All Blacks 2025:
Devan Flanders could be in the conversation by the end of Super. Hopefully he comes back from his long-term injury with the same form he showed in 2024. He's the reason Howden went down to the Landers, he has the size for a test 6, and has the mobility, skillset and speed required at the next level. Would like to see more physicality in his game though, hopefully he can show that when he comes back.
He's having a decent shot at the Blackadder route to AB selection. But, he may lack a red stripe on his jersey for to be completely successful.
I feel like he ticks all the boxes but obviously needs to get back on the park. The only real concern I have is his physical presence on defence but I feel like he wasn't far off last year. Notably that game against the Drua in Fiji last year he really stood out as the dominant Canes loosie that day. Just needs to consistently dominate, he's definitely at peak age now so hopefully he can come back strong.
Flanders is in the same boat as Haig for me. A stand out at age grade level for NZ, but hasn't really kicked on as I would have hoped. It's early days for Haig but Flanders has been around for a while now. Plus Flanders struggles to get through a game without going down with cramp. Hopefully he is going to out grow that.
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i find NZ rugby to be hyper insular and conservative.
We're overly focused on reducing risk over exploiting opportunity (see nearly every player chat being focused on errors rather than anything else), and we select everywhere as cover for disaster rather than a chance to add a positive.
@mariner4life 100%. You've hit the nail on the head. That's been the central problem in ABs selection for the last ten years.
I thought Scott Robertson would be bold and visionary as All Blacks boss, but it was continuity Foster and safety first from him for most of last year.
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Devan Flanders could be in the conversation by the end of Super. Hopefully he comes back from his long-term injury with the same form he showed in 2024. He's the reason Howden went down to the Landers, he has the size for a test 6, and has the mobility, skillset and speed required at the next level. Would like to see more physicality in his game though, hopefully he can show that when he comes back.
@Canes4life said in All Blacks 2025:
Devan Flanders could be in the conversation by the end of Super. Hopefully he comes back from his long-term injury with the same form he showed in 2024. He's the reason Howden went down to the Landers, he has the size for a test 6, and has the mobility, skillset and speed required at the next level. Would like to see more physicality in his game though, hopefully he can show that when he comes back.
Do you ever get sick of pumping Canes players?
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Success has followed Robertson everywhere he has gone. In only one season as Crusaders/Canterbury coach did he not win the title. I'd back him to figure things out. Of the regular team last year, there is vacancy in the loose forwards to be filled, but outside of that, the only obvious change to make would be Proctor in for Ioane at 13. I am not sure there is anyone else who wasn't in and around the matchday 23 last year who has forced there way into a best starting XV. Obviously the bench plays a big role these days, but other than Tupaea or Tavatavanawai potentially coming onto the bench, again the guys who have been in the best form are largely the guys already there.
I am genuinely curious, what do these "bold" selections actually look like? Wallace Sititi and Pasilio Tosi were both very bold picks.
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Success has followed Robertson everywhere he has gone. In only one season as Crusaders/Canterbury coach did he not win the title. I'd back him to figure things out. Of the regular team last year, there is vacancy in the loose forwards to be filled, but outside of that, the only obvious change to make would be Proctor in for Ioane at 13. I am not sure there is anyone else who wasn't in and around the matchday 23 last year who has forced there way into a best starting XV. Obviously the bench plays a big role these days, but other than Tupaea or Tavatavanawai potentially coming onto the bench, again the guys who have been in the best form are largely the guys already there.
I am genuinely curious, what do these "bold" selections actually look like? Wallace Sititi and Pasilio Tosi were both very bold picks.
@frugby said in All Blacks 2025:
I am genuinely curious, what do these "bold" selections actually look like? Wallace Sititi and Pasilio Tosi were both very bold picks.
See, for me this is concerning. We've got so used to mediocrity that selecting absolute stand out form players and only getting them on the field if injury strikes, is considered very bold.
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@frugby said in All Blacks 2025:
I am genuinely curious, what do these "bold" selections actually look like? Wallace Sititi and Pasilio Tosi were both very bold picks.
See, for me this is concerning. We've got so used to mediocrity that selecting absolute stand out form players and only getting them on the field if injury strikes, is considered very bold.
@Bones this ^^^
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@frugby said in All Blacks 2025:
I am genuinely curious, what do these "bold" selections actually look like? Wallace Sititi and Pasilio Tosi were both very bold picks.
See, for me this is concerning. We've got so used to mediocrity that selecting absolute stand out form players and only getting them on the field if injury strikes, is considered very bold.
@Bones said in All Blacks 2025:
@frugby said in All Blacks 2025:
I am genuinely curious, what do these "bold" selections actually look like? Wallace Sititi and Pasilio Tosi were both very bold picks.
See, for me this is concerning. We've got so used to mediocrity that selecting absolute stand out form players and only getting them on the field if injury strikes, is considered very bold.
Sititi showed good form, but hardly put in a body of work that said he was an All Black for the here and now. As for Tosi - was he on anyone's radar?
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Tangitau in for Telea, Parker in for Finau, Ah Kuoi in for Blackadder, Te'lea in for Havili.
