All Blacks v Argentina I
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This team is so underwhelming, at least on paper as the game has not been played yet. The return of Williams and Sititi should add more muscle up front when they are available but I don't see too many adjustments in the backline which would make it less meh as Love did not get enough minutes to show what he is capable of, while Carter is totally untried at this level. Roigard will be welcome when he is back as Ratima and Christie would not even be considered for selection if they were Australian or South African players.
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I desperately hope I'm wrong, but this game has banana skin written all over it.
Argentina by 3-5.
@sparky said in All Blacks v Argentina I:
I desperately hope I'm wrong, but this game has banana skin written all over it.
Argentina by 3-5.
Can't see it meself.
We lose when we don't take them seriously. Am expecting that we're taking them seriously.
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@Victor-Meldrew said in All Blacks v Argentina I:
@brodean said in All Blacks v Argentina I:
Overall this 23 is a bit meh. The tight five remains a strength. Apart from Savea, JB and Jordan there are question marks over the rest of the players outside the tight five.
Vaai shows much promise at 6 and now we will seem tested against tougher opponents than France B/C
I actually like that Robertson is giving players like Proctor, Vaa'i & Kirirfi plenty of opportunity. Taking a bit of a risk - which maybe should have done it last year - is positive.
Taking risks is appropriate when there are potential high rewards. I can see that with Vaa'i. Don't really see it with Kirifi or Proctor.
I'd rather see the risks taken with players like Love and Carter.
@brodean said in All Blacks v Argentina I:
I'd rather see the risks taken with players like Love and Carter.
The issue is how many Tests would you give Love and Carter before the same is said of them?
I see sense in what he's doing for this Test - two new-ish players feeling more settled being given the chance to kick on.
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They see Holland as a lock they want developed and starting, he’s getting every chance with everyone available.
The loose trio looks injury enforced, is Lakai available??@BorderJB said in All Blacks v Argentina I:
They see Holland as a lock they want developed and starting, he’s getting every chance with everyone available.
The loose trio looks injury enforced, is Lakai available??Lakai and Parker arrived late, unavailable for game 1
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@BorderJB said in All Blacks v Argentina I:
They see Holland as a lock they want developed and starting, he’s getting every chance with everyone available.
The loose trio looks injury enforced, is Lakai available??Lakai and Parker arrived late, unavailable for game 1
@canefan said in All Blacks v Argentina I:
@BorderJB said in All Blacks v Argentina I:
They see Holland as a lock they want developed and starting, he’s getting every chance with everyone available.
The loose trio looks injury enforced, is Lakai available??Lakai and Parker arrived late, unavailable for game 1
Robertson said earlier in the week they were in consideration for game 1.
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@brodean And that for me is the key issue.
Robertson was an outstanding coach at provincial and Super Rugby level where he was able to build a squad of fierce battlers around his big personality.
I am not sure he has successfully transitioned yet to international coaching where the risks and rewards are much bigger.
Potentially world class players are being overlooked for solid, but unexciting and unexceptional, battlers.
@sparky said in All Blacks v Argentina I:
@brodean And that for me is the key issue.
Robertson was an outstanding coach at provincial and Super Rugby level where he was able to build a squad of fierce battlers around his big personality.
I am not sure he has successfully transitioned yet to international coaching where the risks and rewards are much bigger.
Potentially world class players are being overlooked for solid, but unexciting and unexceptional, battlers.
Who are the potentially world class players being over looked?
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If we are going to look to the future, I wouldn't have ALB or Christie full stop. Both past there sell by date IMHO. Always pick form players FFS. Jim or Quinn Tupaea. in for ALB and give Kyle Preston a go. Would have also like to have seen Parker at 8 and Du’Plessis Kirifi on the bench instead of Samipeni Finau. Not sure about him at this level. Everyone else pick themselves.
Cannot wait.
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@sparky said in All Blacks v Argentina I:
@brodean And that for me is the key issue.
Robertson was an outstanding coach at provincial and Super Rugby level where he was able to build a squad of fierce battlers around his big personality.
I am not sure he has successfully transitioned yet to international coaching where the risks and rewards are much bigger.
Potentially world class players are being overlooked for solid, but unexciting and unexceptional, battlers.
Who are the potentially world class players being over looked?
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This team is so underwhelming, at least on paper as the game has not been played yet. The return of Williams and Sititi should add more muscle up front when they are available but I don't see too many adjustments in the backline which would make it less meh as Love did not get enough minutes to show what he is capable of, while Carter is totally untried at this level. Roigard will be welcome when he is back as Ratima and Christie would not even be considered for selection if they were Australian or South African players.
@cgrant said in All Blacks v Argentina I:
This team is so underwhelming, at least on paper as the game has not been played yet. The return of Williams and Sititi should add more muscle up front when they are available but I don't see too many adjustments in the backline which would make it less meh as Love did not get enough minutes to show what he is capable of, while Carter is totally untried at this level. Roigard will be welcome when he is back as Ratima and Christie would not even be considered for selection if they were Australian or South African players.
This is my issue with Robertson’s thinking. Player X, may have a huge amount of potential but hasn’t played any/enough test rugby and therefore we need to select the experienced player who is getting worse and worse all the time.
It means the emerging talent only ever gets an opportunity when Robertson’s hand is forced by injury and they’ll get to the Wordl Cup with those players still too inexperienced to be selected in his view and the experienced players having declined in ability even further.
It’s time to find replacements for Reece, Barrett (yes, I know it’s Mo’unga), Lienert-Brown etc. Worst case scenario is the new players will only have enough time to get to the level the players they’re replacing would be at in 2027 anyway.
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NZ used to lead the world in this
@MiketheSnow and our innovation and thinking got stale late in Hansens era and carried on through Fozzie, now Razor seems to be either woefully out of his depth or he is suffering a deer in headlights situation with international rugby.
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@jimmyb Hoskins Sotutu, Akira Ioane, Dalton Papalii, Ruben Love, Timoci Tavatavanawai. All very high ceiling players.
I'd love to see Kyle Preston and Leroy Carter given game time too.
@sparky said in All Blacks v Argentina I:
@jimmyb Hoskins Sotutu, Akira Ioane, Dalton Papalii, Ruben Love, Timoci Tavatavanawai. All very high ceiling players.
I'd love to see Kyle Preston and Leroy Carter given game time too.
Don’t be silly with Sotutu and Ioane. Dalton has and will get chances but has also reasonably fallen down the pecking order.
Love and Tavatavanawai are and will be getting game time. Robertson has brought them into the squad and is giving them exposure at a sensible rate. Preston and Carter have been included in the squad but don’t demand replacing second string players in their position. The Super Rugby final is a noticeable black mark against Carter and being in the squad is a plus for him. Not sure any journey men are being prioritised over Love, Tavatavanawai, Preston, or Carter. Perhaps ALB but TT still has a lot to learn at centre, his defensive positioning and passing was caught out a few times in super rugby. Seems to me Robertson is exposing all the above players in a sensible manner.
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@cgrant said in All Blacks v Argentina I:
This team is so underwhelming, at least on paper as the game has not been played yet. The return of Williams and Sititi should add more muscle up front when they are available but I don't see too many adjustments in the backline which would make it less meh as Love did not get enough minutes to show what he is capable of, while Carter is totally untried at this level. Roigard will be welcome when he is back as Ratima and Christie would not even be considered for selection if they were Australian or South African players.
This is my issue with Robertson’s thinking. Player X, may have a huge amount of potential but hasn’t played any/enough test rugby and therefore we need to select the experienced player who is getting worse and worse all the time.
It means the emerging talent only ever gets an opportunity when Robertson’s hand is forced by injury and they’ll get to the Wordl Cup with those players still too inexperienced to be selected in his view and the experienced players having declined in ability even further.
It’s time to find replacements for Reece, Barrett (yes, I know it’s Mo’unga), Lienert-Brown etc. Worst case scenario is the new players will only have enough time to get to the level the players they’re replacing would be at in 2027 anyway.
@ShaquilleOatmeal said in All Blacks v Argentina I:
@cgrant said in All Blacks v Argentina I:
This team is so underwhelming, at least on paper as the game has not been played yet. The return of Williams and Sititi should add more muscle up front when they are available but I don't see too many adjustments in the backline which would make it less meh as Love did not get enough minutes to show what he is capable of, while Carter is totally untried at this level. Roigard will be welcome when he is back as Ratima and Christie would not even be considered for selection if they were Australian or South African players.
This is my issue with Robertson’s thinking. Player X, may have a huge amount of potential but hasn’t played any/enough test rugby and therefore we need to select the experienced player who is getting worse and worse all the time.
It means the emerging talent only ever gets an opportunity when Robertson’s hand is forced by injury and they’ll get to the Wordl Cup with those players still too inexperienced to be selected in his view and the experienced players having declined in ability even further.
It’s time to find replacements for Reece, Barrett (yes, I know it’s Mo’unga), Lienert-Brown etc. Worst case scenario is the new players will only have enough time to get to the level the players they’re replacing would be at in 2027 anyway.
Who in Super Rugby is demanding themselves to be out ahead of Reece, Barrett, ALB? The wingers in super rugby were v average and Reece was consistently out playing his opposition? Which 10 is putting their hand above Barrett’s? Love? His coach didn’t even trust him over Brett Cameron? Has he showed enough composure in his chances at 10 to ditch Barrett and McKenzie? Did ALB not repeatedly outplay his opponents when on the field this year?
Fringe players in this year have simply not been good enough to push the incumbents out. That’s a problem with the standard of rugby, not Robertson’s selections. There isn’t really anyone who has showed potential that isn’t in the squad. I’m not sure were the criticism is justified
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Barrett and Kirifi very lucky in the pack.
Barrett lucky in the backs. Reece too.
@mariner4life said in All Blacks v Argentina I:
Barrett and Kirifi very lucky in the pack.
Barrett lucky in the backs. Reece too.
Barrett in forwards was always first pick, as captain, and even Kirifi on his last game (and no Jacobson , Sititi was pretty well sure thing I reckon. Same as backs BB is first choice 10, Reece I can take or leave . But I guess it how you look at luck etc. I go along kind of with @jimmyb , Love has had a couple of runs at 10 for Canes, didn't really look a lot better than Godfrey who he placed, although he was good. I also struggle to see wings that are screaming pick me just yet. Though may have some coming through.
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Barrett was always coming back, but you hope Razor has had some honest conversations about his form and that of those in his absence.
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@sparky said in All Blacks v Argentina I:
The pack is as expected.
Finau may need to play Number 8 in the second half.
Not sure why they rate Kirifi so highly. Not sure his three appearances against the French justified him being given the All Blacks 7 jersey for this one.
Excluding Lakai, who else would you give it to? We don't have many options atm.
Someone put a highlights package of Kirifi's first test start in Hamilton and for me he was actually pretty bloody busy, but as much as I'm a Kirifi fan I think it's inevitable that he'll step aside for Lakai from next week.
Du'Plessis is busy and I have no issue with him starting.. as others have said its more when you play both him and Ardie....
What was very evident in the video and of more concern to me is the steps.. usually lateral that Ratima takes and closes space, prior to passing.....for me I am more concerned with the 9s this weekend than I am about the small ( but very mobile) 7 and 8 combo....
given we appear to be playing two 7s we need Ratima to be super quick in getting that ball out
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@ShaquilleOatmeal said in All Blacks v Argentina I:
@cgrant said in All Blacks v Argentina I:
This team is so underwhelming, at least on paper as the game has not been played yet. The return of Williams and Sititi should add more muscle up front when they are available but I don't see too many adjustments in the backline which would make it less meh as Love did not get enough minutes to show what he is capable of, while Carter is totally untried at this level. Roigard will be welcome when he is back as Ratima and Christie would not even be considered for selection if they were Australian or South African players.
This is my issue with Robertson’s thinking. Player X, may have a huge amount of potential but hasn’t played any/enough test rugby and therefore we need to select the experienced player who is getting worse and worse all the time.
It means the emerging talent only ever gets an opportunity when Robertson’s hand is forced by injury and they’ll get to the Wordl Cup with those players still too inexperienced to be selected in his view and the experienced players having declined in ability even further.
It’s time to find replacements for Reece, Barrett (yes, I know it’s Mo’unga), Lienert-Brown etc. Worst case scenario is the new players will only have enough time to get to the level the players they’re replacing would be at in 2027 anyway.
Who in Super Rugby is demanding themselves to be out ahead of Reece, Barrett, ALB? The wingers in super rugby were v average and Reece was consistently out playing his opposition? Which 10 is putting their hand above Barrett’s? Love? His coach didn’t even trust him over Brett Cameron? Has he showed enough composure in his chances at 10 to ditch Barrett and McKenzie? Did ALB not repeatedly outplay his opponents when on the field this year?
Fringe players in this year have simply not been good enough to push the incumbents out. That’s a problem with the standard of rugby, not Robertson’s selections. There isn’t really anyone who has showed potential that isn’t in the squad. I’m not sure were the criticism is justified
