All Blacks v Argentina I
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@canefan said in All Blacks v Argentina I:
We have to fix our third quarter. We were poo
Well we've fixed our 4th quarter
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Some positives for me:
- The tight 5 was excellent again, we have strong depth in every position and have some emerging world class players. We will be in the game against any side in the world on account of them.
- Vaa'i was excellent at 6 again, I think we've found our long term option there now given our locking depth.
- Newell is really coming of age at this level, he was superb, man we have some good depth building in the props now.
- ST was a massive, massive positive. Our bench has been severely lacking of late and costing us games at times, him coming on and really making an impact like that was the winning of the match. Codie/ST one-two punch will cause teams a lot of problems if they both play like they did today.
- The try Jordan created is why he's so valuable at test level, he can just create points out of nothing to put us ahead even when we are struggling. Was a critical moment in the match. He was good at the back again overall.
- Our wings are copping it a bit but I thought both were good. Both made a couple of silly errors, but Reece took his chances well and Rieko went looking for work to take a load off the pack when play wasn't going his way, which was great to see.
Some negatives for me:
- As mentioned a lot, the backline didn't function well at all, timing seemed off all night. Looks like a coaching issue, probably over complicating things which is leading to indecision and poor timing. A lot of work to do as the backs really kept us under pressure despite a strong performance up front.
- Proctor is struggling to make the step up to test level, I think his confidence was knocked after his first test as he doesn't look like the player he was at the end of Super. 13 is a problem for us right now.
- Kirifi struggled to impose himself in any meaningful way. I see him as a bench option at best at test level, if we start him then we need a much bigger 8 but that'd mean dropping Ardie. Ardie back to 7 and a bigger 8 would help a lot.
- The selection of Christie was really stupid, any of the other guys would have done just as well (read: very badly) or likely a lot better. Wasted opportunity to bring a younger player into the squad.
- ALB is done at test level really. He either starts or shouldn't be in the 23, and he's not good enough to start. Feels like when he comes off the bench he tries too hard to make an impact, and instead makes stupid decisions that cost us.
- We really missed Roigard's kicking game. I started reading the reviews on Stuff and they gave Ratima an 8 and mentioned his good box kicking, but to my eye it was very poor, often only gaining 10 - 15m. Ratima was OK outside of that, but those kicks kept us under pressure. We have plenty of potential at 9, but Roigard is still a rookie and is suddenly the nailed on starter, and Ratima and Hotham have been rocks and diamonds. 9 is still a work in progress.
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Some positives for me:
- The tight 5 was excellent again, we have strong depth in every position and have some emerging world class players. We will be in the game against any side in the world on account of them.
- Vaa'i was excellent at 6 again, I think we've found our long term option there now given our locking depth.
- Newell is really coming of age at this level, he was superb, man we have some good depth building in the props now.
- ST was a massive, massive positive. Our bench has been severely lacking of late and costing us games at times, him coming on and really making an impact like that was the winning of the match. Codie/ST one-two punch will cause teams a lot of problems if they both play like they did today.
- The try Jordan created is why he's so valuable at test level, he can just create points out of nothing to put us ahead even when we are struggling. Was a critical moment in the match. He was good at the back again overall.
- Our wings are copping it a bit but I thought both were good. Both made a couple of silly errors, but Reece took his chances well and Rieko went looking for work to take a load off the pack when play wasn't going his way, which was great to see.
Some negatives for me:
- As mentioned a lot, the backline didn't function well at all, timing seemed off all night. Looks like a coaching issue, probably over complicating things which is leading to indecision and poor timing. A lot of work to do as the backs really kept us under pressure despite a strong performance up front.
- Proctor is struggling to make the step up to test level, I think his confidence was knocked after his first test as he doesn't look like the player he was at the end of Super. 13 is a problem for us right now.
- Kirifi struggled to impose himself in any meaningful way. I see him as a bench option at best at test level, if we start him then we need a much bigger 8 but that'd mean dropping Ardie. Ardie back to 7 and a bigger 8 would help a lot.
- The selection of Christie was really stupid, any of the other guys would have done just as well (read: very badly) or likely a lot better. Wasted opportunity to bring a younger player into the squad.
- ALB is done at test level really. He either starts or shouldn't be in the 23, and he's not good enough to start. Feels like when he comes off the bench he tries too hard to make an impact, and instead makes stupid decisions that cost us.
- We really missed Roigard's kicking game. I started reading the reviews on Stuff and they gave Ratima an 8 and mentioned his good box kicking, but to my eye it was very poor, often only gaining 10 - 15m. Ratima was OK outside of that, but those kicks kept us under pressure. We have plenty of potential at 9, but Roigard is still a rookie and is suddenly the nailed on starter, and Ratima and Hotham have been rocks and diamonds. 9 is still a work in progress.
@No-Quarter said in All Blacks v Argentina I:
Some positives for me:
- The tight 5 was excellent again, we have strong depth in every position and have some emerging world class players. We will be in the game against any side in the world on account of them.
- Vaa'i was excellent at 6 again, I think we've found our long term option there now given our locking depth.
- Newell is really coming of age at this level, he was superb, man we have some good depth building in the props now.
- ST was a massive, massive positive. Our bench has been severely lacking of late and costing us games at times, him coming on and really making an impact like that was the winning of the match. Codie/ST one-two punch will cause teams a lot of problems if they both play like they did today.
- The try Jordan created is why he's so valuable at test level, he can just create points out of nothing to put us ahead even when we are struggling. Was a critical moment in the match. He was good at the back again overall.
- Our wings are copping it a bit but I thought both were good. Both made a couple of silly errors, but Reece took his chances well and Rieko went looking for work to take a load off the pack when play wasn't going his way, which was great to see.
Some negatives for me:
- As mentioned a lot, the backline didn't function well at all, timing seemed off all night. Looks like a coaching issue, probably over complicating things which is leading to indecision and poor timing. A lot of work to do as the backs really kept us under pressure despite a strong performance up front.
- Proctor is struggling to make the step up to test level, I think his confidence was knocked after his first test as he doesn't look like the player he was at the end of Super. 13 is a problem for us right now.
- Kirifi struggled to impose himself in any meaningful way. I see him as a bench option at best at test level, if we start him then we need a much bigger 8 but that'd mean dropping Ardie. Ardie back to 7 and a bigger 8 would help a lot.
- The selection of Christie was really stupid, any of the other guys would have done just as well (read: very badly) or likely a lot better. Wasted opportunity to bring a younger player into the squad.
- ALB is done at test level really. He either starts or shouldn't be in the 23, and he's not good enough to start. Feels like when he comes off the bench he tries too hard to make an impact, and instead makes stupid decisions that cost us.
- We really missed Roigard's kicking game. I started reading the reviews on Stuff and they gave Ratima an 8 and mentioned his good box kicking, but to my eye it was very poor, often only gaining 10 - 15m. Ratima was OK outside of that, but those kicks kept us under pressure. We have plenty of potential at 9, but Roigard is still a rookie and is suddenly the nailed on starter, and Ratima and Hotham have been rocks and diamonds. 9 is still a work in progress.
Don't agree with all of that but a post worthy of a like.
I think Ratima's kicking game gets unfairly attacked, he got us out of trouble often in this match, and in the finals of Super he was doing the same thing. Could he have a few metres more on his kicks? Sure, but I'd rather they go out, or are contestable.
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About the No. 9 defensive kicks (short or long). The ABs have put a stop to the contestable, high box kicks from within their own 22. What a difference it is making to our exits. The prof's influence for sure.
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@Nepia that's fair, and agree about putting it out. "Very poor" was probably an over statement (but this is the Fern, we live on hyperbole), but he doesn't get the same distance as Roigard. The problem stems from 10 really though, if we had a 10 that could put more distance on his clearances there'd be less pressure on the 9s kicking game.
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@stodders we normally give a centre around 30 tests before we decide he’s not really suited to that position
so let’s just give Proctor at a minimum the rest of the year to prove his worth in the 13 jersey .@Steven-Harris said in All Blacks v Argentina I:
@stodders we normally give a centre around 30 tests before we decide he’s not really suited to that position
so let’s just give Proctor at a minimum the rest of the year to prove his worth in the 13 jersey .Rieko has never been close to having a game that bad at centre for the ABs.
The guy is sh@tting the bed unfortunately. His SRP form warranted a look but it his AB form doesn't warrant continuing.
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@Steven-Harris said in All Blacks v Argentina I:
@stodders we normally give a centre around 30 tests before we decide he’s not really suited to that position
so let’s just give Proctor at a minimum the rest of the year to prove his worth in the 13 jersey .Rieko has never been close to having a game that bad at centre for the ABs.
The guy is sh@tting the bed unfortunately. His SRP form warranted a look but it his AB form doesn't warrant continuing.
@brodean cant say i’m fully sold on Proctor myself but what i am saying he deserves a full season to bed in
Besides i dont see too many other options staring us in the face
It would be pointless going back to Reiko if your trying to develop your attack i just dont see the guy as natural distributor and hes played plenty of rugby at 13 for both the Blues and the ABs .
If we have losses where theres disfunction in those particular areas by all means make changes but in the mean time no need to change Proctor imo
Just for the record whom would you bring in ? -
@brodean cant say i’m fully sold on Proctor myself but what i am saying he deserves a full season to bed in
Besides i dont see too many other options staring us in the face
It would be pointless going back to Reiko if your trying to develop your attack i just dont see the guy as natural distributor and hes played plenty of rugby at 13 for both the Blues and the ABs .
If we have losses where theres disfunction in those particular areas by all means make changes but in the mean time no need to change Proctor imo
Just for the record whom would you bring in ?@Steven-Harris said in All Blacks v Argentina I:
@brodean cant say i’m fully sold on Proctor myself but what i am saying he deserves a full season to bed in
Besides i dont see too many other options staring us in the face
It would be pointless going back to Reiko if your trying to develop your attack i just dont see the guy as natural distributor and hes played plenty of rugby at 13 for both the Blues and the ABs .
If we have losses where theres disfunction in those particular areas by all means make changes but in the mean time no need to change Proctor imo
Just for the record whom would you bring in ?There's other options apart from Rieko.
Rona and Lam. Lam was better last year at centre for the Blues than Rieko.
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Gregor Paul in the NZ Herald has astutely summed up the problem - which has been evident for a while now but which the coaches, with the ‘brand’ ambition to play thousand-mile-an-hour rugby, refuse to confront.
In other words, while they now have a forward platform and set-piece game as good as anyone, the coaches are undoing the good work with their pressure on a below average (by AB standards) backline to play at such a speed that it sacrifices precision, efficiency and cohesion.
“The obvious gulf between the coaching vision and the team’s ability to produce it leaves the All Blacks in a fascinating quandary about whether to pull back from this notion that they can run opponents off their feet and to lean more heavily into slowing things down and playing around their set-piece strength,” Paul writes.
“As unimaginable, or even unpalatable as it is, the All Blacks have to consider giving up on their goal of being the world’s great entertainers and accept that their pack has the core skills, size and technical proficiency to crush the life out of opponents.”
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Gregor Paul in the NZ Herald has astutely summed up the problem - which has been evident for a while now but which the coaches, with the ‘brand’ ambition to play thousand-mile-an-hour rugby, refuse to confront.
In other words, while they now have a forward platform and set-piece game as good as anyone, the coaches are undoing the good work with their pressure on a below average (by AB standards) backline to play at such a speed that it sacrifices precision, efficiency and cohesion.
“The obvious gulf between the coaching vision and the team’s ability to produce it leaves the All Blacks in a fascinating quandary about whether to pull back from this notion that they can run opponents off their feet and to lean more heavily into slowing things down and playing around their set-piece strength,” Paul writes.
“As unimaginable, or even unpalatable as it is, the All Blacks have to consider giving up on their goal of being the world’s great entertainers and accept that their pack has the core skills, size and technical proficiency to crush the life out of opponents.”
@His-Bobness said in All Blacks v Argentina I:
Gregor Paul in the NZ Herald has astutely summed up the problem - which has been evident for a while now but which the coaches, with the ‘brand’ ambition to play thousand-mile-an-hour rugby, refuse to confront.
In other words, while they now have a forward platform and set-piece game as good as anyone, the coaches are undoing the good work with their pressure on a below average (by AB standards) backline to play at such a speed that it sacrifices precision, efficiency and cohesion.
“The obvious gulf between the coaching vision and the team’s ability to produce it leaves the All Blacks in a fascinating quandary about whether to pull back from this notion that they can run opponents off their feet and to lean more heavily into slowing things down and playing around their set-piece strength,” Paul writes.
“As unimaginable, or even unpalatable as it is, the All Blacks have to consider giving up on their goal of being the world’s great entertainers and accept that their pack has the core skills, size and technical proficiency to crush the life out of opponents.”
There can be a happy medium. We can still play expansive rugby, but we should pick and choose the right time
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@His-Bobness said in All Blacks v Argentina I:
Gregor Paul in the NZ Herald has astutely summed up the problem - which has been evident for a while now but which the coaches, with the ‘brand’ ambition to play thousand-mile-an-hour rugby, refuse to confront.
In other words, while they now have a forward platform and set-piece game as good as anyone, the coaches are undoing the good work with their pressure on a below average (by AB standards) backline to play at such a speed that it sacrifices precision, efficiency and cohesion.
“The obvious gulf between the coaching vision and the team’s ability to produce it leaves the All Blacks in a fascinating quandary about whether to pull back from this notion that they can run opponents off their feet and to lean more heavily into slowing things down and playing around their set-piece strength,” Paul writes.
“As unimaginable, or even unpalatable as it is, the All Blacks have to consider giving up on their goal of being the world’s great entertainers and accept that their pack has the core skills, size and technical proficiency to crush the life out of opponents.”
There can be a happy medium. We can still play expansive rugby, but we should pick and choose the right time
@canefan Yes, but I think that’s his point. It’s always going to be a little bit of playing to the game plan and playing what’s in front of you. The backs look like they’re being over-coached to the point they don’t trust their own instincts. I think something is fundamentally wrong in the coaching setup.
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It's luvly jubbly having a forward pack. It's been a long time coming.
I feel we can now go toe to toe with the SA pack. -
@brodean cant say i’m fully sold on Proctor myself but what i am saying he deserves a full season to bed in
Besides i dont see too many other options staring us in the face
It would be pointless going back to Reiko if your trying to develop your attack i just dont see the guy as natural distributor and hes played plenty of rugby at 13 for both the Blues and the ABs .
If we have losses where theres disfunction in those particular areas by all means make changes but in the mean time no need to change Proctor imo
Just for the record whom would you bring in ?@Steven-Harris said in All Blacks v Argentina I:
@brodean cant say i’m fully sold on Proctor myself but what i am saying he deserves a full season to bed in
Besides i dont see too many other options staring us in the face
It would be pointless going back to Reiko if your trying to develop your attack i just dont see the guy as natural distributor and hes played plenty of rugby at 13 for both the Blues and the ABs .
If we have losses where theres disfunction in those particular areas by all means make changes but in the mean time no need to change Proctor imo
Just for the record whom would you bring in ?I agree. He's shown at SR level he has the capability, I feel it's worth more time in the saddle to see if he can steadily improve.
Dumping him now would surely destroy his confidence.
The player that most needs to be put on the pine is the one player they won't: Ardie Savea. Why aren't we discussing his "impact" more openly? Or is it enough he didn't try another chip kick in our own 22?
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Love needs to be in the 23.
We need to experiment.
Love to 15 /10 or wing Do some goal kicking.
Give DMac game time.
Jordan swap at times to wing
Give Proctor more time
Aimless kicks are a nightmare -
Gregor Paul in the NZ Herald has astutely summed up the problem - which has been evident for a while now but which the coaches, with the ‘brand’ ambition to play thousand-mile-an-hour rugby, refuse to confront.
In other words, while they now have a forward platform and set-piece game as good as anyone, the coaches are undoing the good work with their pressure on a below average (by AB standards) backline to play at such a speed that it sacrifices precision, efficiency and cohesion.
“The obvious gulf between the coaching vision and the team’s ability to produce it leaves the All Blacks in a fascinating quandary about whether to pull back from this notion that they can run opponents off their feet and to lean more heavily into slowing things down and playing around their set-piece strength,” Paul writes.
“As unimaginable, or even unpalatable as it is, the All Blacks have to consider giving up on their goal of being the world’s great entertainers and accept that their pack has the core skills, size and technical proficiency to crush the life out of opponents.”
@His-Bobness just need a decent 10 who knows how to manage this game plan. Oh wait he’s coming back soon.
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One or two fullas need to retire
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@His-Bobness just need a decent 10 who knows how to manage this game plan. Oh wait he’s coming back soon.
@chchfanatic said in All Blacks v Argentina I:
@His-Bobness just need a decent 10 who knows how to manage this game plan. Oh wait he’s coming back soon.
Dan's a bit old for a comeback.
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It's luvly jubbly having a forward pack. It's been a long time coming.
I feel we can now go toe to toe with the SA pack.@BerniesCorner said in All Blacks v Argentina I:
It's luvly jubbly having a forward pack. It's been a long time coming.
I feel we can now go toe to toe with the SA pack.Early days - but, shifting Vaa'i to 6 might be a masterstroke - our own version of PSdT.
At full strength (soon, but maybe not yet), we could go:
Williams, Taylor, Lomax, Holland, Barrett, Vaa'i, Savea, Sititi
deGroot, Taukei'aho, Newell, Tuipolotu, Parker, Lakai (6/2 split if we want it)For now, probably Finau and Jacobson for Parker and Lakai.
