All Blacks v Argentina II

antipodean

@mencey said in All Blacks v Argentina II:

@antipodean said in All Blacks v Argentina II:

@mencey said in All Blacks v Argentina II:

@antipodean said in All Blacks v Argentina II:

@ShaquilleOatmeal said in All Blacks v Argentina II:

@antipodean I don't disagree but I can't see Savea being subbed off or starting on the bench any time soon.

Unfortunately neither can I, and the All Blacks are the worse for it.

What the fuck are U talking about. Ardie is world class. He has proved himself time after time for years .

At hitting rucks? Putting in a hard shoulder that turns into a dominant tackle others can driver through to win a turnover?

Or are we talking about seagulling to carry a ball, often with defenders hanging off him with the resulting slow ruck clearance for the next phase? Chip kicks from 10m out of our own line? His abysmal defensive reads? His low effort in running back into the defensive line? His giving up metres in defence trying to scrag players to the deck in the hope he gets a turnover?

He looks all the world a back that's been asked to play in the forwards.

Or maybe I'm wrong and his highlight reel clearly puts me back in my box.

Obviously all the experts including the ones that chose him as world player of the year are wrong and all the "experts" on here are right. I stand corrected.

I'm not sure you're aware of the process, but the rugby loving community vote on the nominees. The same people getting all excited over the highlight reel...

nostrildamus

@antipodean said in All Blacks v Argentina II:

@mencey said in All Blacks v Argentina II:

@antipodean said in All Blacks v Argentina II:

@mencey said in All Blacks v Argentina II:

@antipodean said in All Blacks v Argentina II:

@ShaquilleOatmeal said in All Blacks v Argentina II:

@antipodean I don't disagree but I can't see Savea being subbed off or starting on the bench any time soon.

Unfortunately neither can I, and the All Blacks are the worse for it.

What the fuck are U talking about. Ardie is world class. He has proved himself time after time for years .

At hitting rucks? Putting in a hard shoulder that turns into a dominant tackle others can driver through to win a turnover?

Or are we talking about seagulling to carry a ball, often with defenders hanging off him with the resulting slow ruck clearance for the next phase? Chip kicks from 10m out of our own line? His abysmal defensive reads? His low effort in running back into the defensive line? His giving up metres in defence trying to scrag players to the deck in the hope he gets a turnover?

He looks all the world a back that's been asked to play in the forwards.

Or maybe I'm wrong and his highlight reel clearly puts me back in my box.

Obviously all the experts including the ones that chose him as world player of the year are wrong and all the "experts" on here are right. I stand corrected.

I'm not sure you're aware of the process, but the rugby loving community vote on the nominees. The same people getting all excited over the highlight reel...

I don't want to get into this Savea slugfest but Wilson, Muliaina, Turunui and other ex-internationals have rated him highly. Very highly.

And some guy called Joe Schmidt:
https://www.msn.com/en-au/news/other/joe-schmidt-weighs-into-all-blacks-hot-topic-after-ardie-savea-produces-best-ever-super-rugby-performance/ar-AA1F4A7H
"“Because Ardie is so dynamic off the back of the scrum, that’s great. He’s so destructive as a defender when he’s coming off seven.

“People probably underestimate how good he is in the lineout, he’s actually so quick because he’s so explosive – he’s a very good option. There’s not a lot he can’t do.”"

ARHS

Always called Dmac Big Jim as everyone has called him that in interviews for years. Don't know how the hell TT is being attributed that name now.

mencey

@antipodean said in All Blacks v Argentina II:

@mencey said in All Blacks v Argentina II:

@antipodean said in All Blacks v Argentina II:

@mencey said in All Blacks v Argentina II:

@antipodean said in All Blacks v Argentina II:

@ShaquilleOatmeal said in All Blacks v Argentina II:

@antipodean I don't disagree but I can't see Savea being subbed off or starting on the bench any time soon.

Unfortunately neither can I, and the All Blacks are the worse for it.

What the fuck are U talking about. Ardie is world class. He has proved himself time after time for years .

At hitting rucks? Putting in a hard shoulder that turns into a dominant tackle others can driver through to win a turnover?

Or are we talking about seagulling to carry a ball, often with defenders hanging off him with the resulting slow ruck clearance for the next phase? Chip kicks from 10m out of our own line? His abysmal defensive reads? His low effort in running back into the defensive line? His giving up metres in defence trying to scrag players to the deck in the hope he gets a turnover?

He looks all the world a back that's been asked to play in the forwards.

Or maybe I'm wrong and his highlight reel clearly puts me back in my box.

Obviously all the experts including the ones that chose him as world player of the year are wrong and all the "experts" on here are right. I stand corrected.

I'm not sure you're aware of the process, but the rugby loving community vote on the nominees. The same people getting all excited over the highlight reel...

This is why I shouldn't even bother with this. Here is a link to the voting panel for the world Rugby player of the year.

https://www.world.rugby/tournaments/awards/voting-panel.

Here is the one for the mens.

World Rugby Men’s 15s Player of the Year

Jacques Burger (NAM)
Fiona Coghlan (IRE)
Victor Matfield (RSA)
Drew Mitchell (AUS)
Ugo Monye (ENG)
Sergio Parrise (ITA)
Kieran Read (NZL)
Blaine Scully (USA)

Criteria: This award is open to all men’s 15s players who have played more than one year of international rugby. Voting is assessed on international test match performances. Club rugby is not recognized.

Facts matter!!

pakman

The backs need another spin. My only change in starters would be to give Carter, or more probably, Narawa a shot instead of Reece.

Tupaea or more likely Tim for midfield replacement.

Dan54

@antipodean said in All Blacks v Argentina II:

@mencey said in All Blacks v Argentina II:

@antipodean said in All Blacks v Argentina II:

@mencey said in All Blacks v Argentina II:

@antipodean said in All Blacks v Argentina II:

@ShaquilleOatmeal said in All Blacks v Argentina II:

@antipodean I don't disagree but I can't see Savea being subbed off or starting on the bench any time soon.

Unfortunately neither can I, and the All Blacks are the worse for it.

What the fuck are U talking about. Ardie is world class. He has proved himself time after time for years .

At hitting rucks? Putting in a hard shoulder that turns into a dominant tackle others can driver through to win a turnover?

Or are we talking about seagulling to carry a ball, often with defenders hanging off him with the resulting slow ruck clearance for the next phase? Chip kicks from 10m out of our own line? His abysmal defensive reads? His low effort in running back into the defensive line? His giving up metres in defence trying to scrag players to the deck in the hope he gets a turnover?

He looks all the world a back that's been asked to play in the forwards.

Or maybe I'm wrong and his highlight reel clearly puts me back in my box.

Obviously all the experts including the ones that chose him as world player of the year are wrong and all the "experts" on here are right. I stand corrected.

I'm not sure you're aware of the process, but the rugby loving community vote on the nominees. The same people getting all excited over the highlight reel...

Think someone lead you up garden path mate, public have no vote on WR player of the year.

Apologies, just saw mency has already posted that.

antipodean

@mencey Suitably chastised for relying on wikipedia.

Doesn't change my opinion that he's not doing core loose forward work so the selections of the other two have to take that into account.

He literally gets plaudits for work he's not doing.

MajorStokes

He gets over the gain line, and then some. It’s a crucial component of his job. Means he attracts more defenders too which creates space.

He is, without doubt, an incredible talent and player.

It doesn’t mean he’s beyond criticism for his weaknesses tho. As others point out, it means the back row needs balance to compensate.

Which is why he should never play with Kirifi.

Canes4life

Taking a stab at the 23 for this week, I think we'll role with the following:

Williams
Taylor
Newell
Barrett (C)
Holland
Va'ai
Savea
Sititi
Ratima
Barrett
Ioane
Barrett
Proctor
Reece
Jordan
Taukei'aho
De Groot
Tosi
Parker
Lakai
Christie
McKenzie
Tupaea

nostrildamus

@MajorRage said in All Blacks v Argentina II:

He gets over the gain line, and then some. It’s a crucial component of his job. Means he attracts more defenders too which creates space.
He is, without doubt, an incredible talent and player.
It doesn’t mean he’s beyond criticism for his weaknesses tho. As others point out, it means the back row needs balance to compensate.
Which is why he should never play with Kirifi.

The observations sound reasonable but the movement from claims to conclusion is more open IMHO (and extrapolating from others):

Savea doesn't do all the tight 7 required
We need a big bopper
Kirifi isn't big enough enough when playing with Savea...
Therefore Savea unbalances the loose trio and so don't have Savea at 8 and Kirifi at 7 as we need a big, tight-playing 6.

Don't have a problem with part of the conclusion but maybe a big reason is not foremost because Savea is a particular type of player but because we don't have a big bruising hard type of 6 anyway. Blackadder is more of a bunny than a bruiser, Finau's light flickers, Parker hasn't been tried, most of the other 6's tend to be lighter, smaller, and/or more mobile in NZ super teams. Even if we had a bigger 7 like Dalton, we probably still haven't found the right 6. Oh there is/was one but Robertson et al didn't seem to want him! So maybe the 6 problem is still a problem regardless of who the 7 should be.

mariner4life

what 6 problem? The 6 we have now is the best we have had in years!

nostrildamus

@mariner4life said in All Blacks v Argentina II:

what 6 problem? The 6 we have now is the best we have had in years!

Well, actually we have a new 6 problem. The current 6, and I grant you looks a good 6, is also one of our top locks.

sparky

@Canes4life I think that's about what will be selected.

Preston will probably start ahead of Christie.

Robertson has said that both Williams and Sititi are "managed minutes" and neither will play the full game. Hard to know if that it 50 minutes from the start or thirty minutes from the bench.

Dan54

@Canes4life I would be keen on more or less same team too, though admit to be almost keener on having a peek of Parker at 8. Sititi fan etc, but even more size would genuinely excite me.

ShaquilleOatmeal

They could give Parker and Sititi half a game each at eight. Although, they'll probably have Kirifi or Lakai on the bench too and they'll want to move Savea to eight to give that player time - they'll almost certainly play Savea for the whole game.

Frank

@Dan54 said in All Blacks v Argentina II:

but even more size would genuinely excite me.

A phrase often heard

taniwharugby

@sparky guess it depends what sheet you sing from, but years gone by the theory was if they were not 100%, you start them, that way you can manage thier minutes, whereas off the bench, an injury hits, they could still hit the field in the 3rd minute...

Bones

@taniwharugby said in All Blacks v Argentina II:

@sparky guess it depends what sheet you sing from, but years gone by the theory was if they were not 100%, you start them, that way you can manage thier minutes, whereas off the bench, an injury hits, they could still hit the field in the 3rd minute...

Probably not so bad in the FR though.

Dan54

@Frank said in All Blacks v Argentina II:

@Dan54 said in All Blacks v Argentina II:

but even more size would genuinely excite me.

A phrase often heard

Hope it wasn't my wife you heard uttering that Frank!:confounded_face:

pakman

I’m craving sauce!!

The Silver Fern

All Blacks v Argentina II