Red Cards & HIA
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@Bones said in Ireland v All Blacks - Chicago2:
@booboo said in Ireland v All Blacks - Chicago2:
Ball or no ball he put himself into that position.
This! I go against the grain on the "accidental so ok" bollocks.
As Joey Swoll says, you need to do better.
9 times out of 10, foul play is simply players putting themselves in a poor position and/or trying to do something they shouldn't, being reckless and sometimes wilfully ignorant. This is the same argument that gives players a free pass to wipe out players in the air with "but sir, he was only watching the ball the whole time". Yeah numpty, that's the fucking issue.
Be aware, act consciously, take responsibility. These are well paid professional players and coaches.
I agree with this sentiment most of the time when a tackler doesn't get low (and all the time when the tackler has time to get low), but in this instance he had no time and wasn't even looking to tackle - I get you don't think that makes a difference, but to me it kinda does. It's not realistic for the game to be played by 15 blokes crouching, and he's being penalised for a dangerous tackle when he hasn't actually even attempted a tackle. Yes I see the argument that he's part of the defensive line so of course he's there to make a tackle - but in practical terms I think he's just taking the space to prevent anyone trying to go through there - which is why neither he or BB expected the pass.
That's why the argument from the Irish about the pass being forward - because at that point BB wasn't a realistic recipient, so the tackler wasn't prepared. It's a shit argument of course, because it's immaterial to the current interpretations, but personally I do see it as mitigating and I'd expect it to get him off any further sanctions@reprobate you can't see the fault in that argument I take it?
Right, so he's lined up in defence, advanced then had time to note the pass would be forward so adjusted in that very short amount of time to not attempt a tackle, but brace himself to a shoulder charge with decent force and a tucked elbow.
So he was either prepared to make a tackle and readjusted in the time we're saying people can't make decisions, or he was reckless and wasn't prepared to make a legal tackle.
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@Tim said in Ireland v All Blacks - Chicago2:
@MiketheSnow said in Ireland v All Blacks - Chicago2:
The mitigation was it was a forward pass
That is a unique excuse. No one else saw it, nor did would it have impacted the tackle situation.
Come on ...
Kelleher asked the ref to look at the pass. Ref didn't.
Beirne wasn't set up to tackle. He was set up to brace for impact from a dummy runner.
Then it changed in an instant and he made head contact in the collision.
It certainly wasn't a tackle.
@MiketheSnow said in Ireland v All Blacks - Chicago2:
@Tim said in Ireland v All Blacks - Chicago2:
@MiketheSnow said in Ireland v All Blacks - Chicago2:
The mitigation was it was a forward pass
That is a unique excuse. No one else saw it, nor did would it have impacted the tackle situation.
Come on ...
Kelleher asked the ref to look at the pass. Ref didn't.
Beirne wasn't set up to tackle. He was set up to brace for impact from a dummy runner.
Then it changed in an instant and he made head contact in the collision.
It certainly wasn't a tackle.
It also certainly wasnt a forward pass. Was Beirne offside?
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@MiketheSnow said in Ireland v All Blacks - Chicago2:
@Tim said in Ireland v All Blacks - Chicago2:
@MiketheSnow said in Ireland v All Blacks - Chicago2:
The mitigation was it was a forward pass
That is a unique excuse. No one else saw it, nor did would it have impacted the tackle situation.
Come on ...
Kelleher asked the ref to look at the pass. Ref didn't.
Beirne wasn't set up to tackle. He was set up to brace for impact from a dummy runner.
Then it changed in an instant and he made head contact in the collision.
It certainly wasn't a tackle.
It also certainly wasnt a forward pass. Was Beirne offside?
@DaGrubster said in Ireland v All Blacks - Chicago2:
@MiketheSnow said in Ireland v All Blacks - Chicago2:
@Tim said in Ireland v All Blacks - Chicago2:
@MiketheSnow said in Ireland v All Blacks - Chicago2:
The mitigation was it was a forward pass
That is a unique excuse. No one else saw it, nor did would it have impacted the tackle situation.
Come on ...
Kelleher asked the ref to look at the pass. Ref didn't.
Beirne wasn't set up to tackle. He was set up to brace for impact from a dummy runner.
Then it changed in an instant and he made head contact in the collision.
It certainly wasn't a tackle.
It also certainly wasnt a forward pass. Was Beirne offside?
I'm not sure on the logic there?
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didn't see it live, don't have a dog in this fight, but for me re the red card, it certainly was a few years ago, ref teams much quicker to apply mitigation these days. I'm not as familiar with how things are reffed under the 20 min red card.
IMO he braced for impact rather than tucked and drove a shoulder, to that end i'm a bit surprised in the current game that he wasn't seen as passive in the contact as he absorbed the impact and went backwards as much as JB did. I've no real issue with it given recent years but am surprised at the vigor with which are some are claiming its the clearest red you'll see, think could easily have stayed yellow.
I blame world rugby for this lack of clarity, before the last world cup, and in some games in it (particularly in the early rounds) the interpretations were way stricter and mitigations far less regularly applied than we saw in later stages and since.
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didn't see it live, don't have a dog in this fight, but for me re the red card, it certainly was a few years ago, ref teams much quicker to apply mitigation these days. I'm not as familiar with how things are reffed under the 20 min red card.
IMO he braced for impact rather than tucked and drove a shoulder, to that end i'm a bit surprised in the current game that he wasn't seen as passive in the contact as he absorbed the impact and went backwards as much as JB did. I've no real issue with it given recent years but am surprised at the vigor with which are some are claiming its the clearest red you'll see, think could easily have stayed yellow.
I blame world rugby for this lack of clarity, before the last world cup, and in some games in it (particularly in the early rounds) the interpretations were way stricter and mitigations far less regularly applied than we saw in later stages and since.
@Dodge you made me watch it again, as we apparently have different versions of backwards. Can't say it looks the same to me.
What is most apparent though is how laughable it is to suggest the guy one out from the ruck isn't expecting to make a tackle when the halfback picks and drifts to his side.
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genuine question - are you saying that in the first shot in that clip you don't see Beirne bounce backwards after the contact? The clip you posted shows pretty clearly from the first angle that Beirne takes three steps back immediately after the contact takes place, it actually also shows that BB actually keeps travelling forwards and spins slightly to the side line. I would argue that's passive in contact, which these days usually provides enough mitigation.
I understand it was upgraded to a 20 min red because of the level of danger, which with a shoulder to the head I can follow the logic, it just seems to fly slightly in the face of what I've seen more recently. Just my twopenneth
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genuine question - are you saying that in the first shot in that clip you don't see Beirne bounce backwards after the contact? The clip you posted shows pretty clearly from the first angle that Beirne takes three steps back immediately after the contact takes place, it actually also shows that BB actually keeps travelling forwards and spins slightly to the side line. I would argue that's passive in contact, which these days usually provides enough mitigation.
I understand it was upgraded to a 20 min red because of the level of danger, which with a shoulder to the head I can follow the logic, it just seems to fly slightly in the face of what I've seen more recently. Just my twopenneth
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didn't see it live, don't have a dog in this fight, but for me re the red card, it certainly was a few years ago, ref teams much quicker to apply mitigation these days. I'm not as familiar with how things are reffed under the 20 min red card.
IMO he braced for impact rather than tucked and drove a shoulder, to that end i'm a bit surprised in the current game that he wasn't seen as passive in the contact as he absorbed the impact and went backwards as much as JB did. I've no real issue with it given recent years but am surprised at the vigor with which are some are claiming its the clearest red you'll see, think could easily have stayed yellow.
I blame world rugby for this lack of clarity, before the last world cup, and in some games in it (particularly in the early rounds) the interpretations were way stricter and mitigations far less regularly applied than we saw in later stages and since.
@Dodge said in Ireland v All Blacks - Chicago2:
I blame world rugby for this lack of clarity, before the last world cup, and in some games in it (particularly in the early rounds) the interpretations were way stricter and mitigations far less regularly applied than we saw in later stages and since.
the fact that people on here are passionate fans who have watched alot of rugby at all levels, and we have differing interpretations of these kinds of incidents kinda sums up the hole that World Rugby have created and seem incapable of getting out of.
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@Dodge that's an interesting perspective, thanks. I don't have time to watch a lot of NH rugby, so my impression from the last RWC is that the push for cards for these types of incidents came strongly from the north. And further to that, Ireland themselves have a history of calling for cards for the opposition whenever there is some form of accidental head contact. So to that end, they made their bed, they can lie in it now. If that is changing then that's a good thing, but as we are all saying, the directive from WR has to be crystal clear on this, but right now it's as clear as mud.
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@reprobate said in Ireland v All Blacks - Chicago2:
@Mauss re the loose forward comparison vs Ireland - the red card has to make a big difference there. The Irish were buggered late in the game, they had to make a lot of tackles as you point out. Also the fact that it was Beirne, who is an extra loose forward for them, and one of their best.
Sititi came on and dominated late - looks like if you take out his carry metres, the Irish had more? So are we really doing the right thing with our starting loosies?That, to me, just comes across as letting the Irish loose forwards off the hook rather easily. Aren’t Jack Conan and Josh Van der Flier both 50-cappers while also being British and Irish Lions? They should be able to lift for 20 minutes with Beirne off the field, after which he could be replaced. That’s not even mentioning another 50-capper on the bench in Caelan Doris.
Again, my intention wasn't to claim that the AB back row is particularly settled: blindside remains an issue while Savea’s eclectic positioning makes any loose forward combination a complex exercise. But, for now at least, there are a few things which are working, and that’s including Sititi’s performances off the bench. After a difficult start it would’ve been easy for a player like Sititi to spiral so the fact that he’s once again putting in performances – even in shorter bursts – is good to see.
It's far from perfect but it's also not quite a disaster either.
@Mauss said in Ireland v All Blacks - Chicago2:
@reprobate said in Ireland v All Blacks - Chicago2:
@Mauss re the loose forward comparison vs Ireland - the red card has to make a big difference there. The Irish were buggered late in the game, they had to make a lot of tackles as you point out. Also the fact that it was Beirne, who is an extra loose forward for them, and one of their best.
Sititi came on and dominated late - looks like if you take out his carry metres, the Irish had more? So are we really doing the right thing with our starting loosies?That, to me, just comes across as letting the Irish loose forwards off the hook rather easily. Aren’t Jack Conan and Josh Van der Flier both 50-cappers while also being British and Irish Lions? They should be able to lift for 20 minutes with Beirne off the field, after which he could be replaced. That’s not even mentioning another 50-capper on the bench in Caelan Doris.
Again, my intention wasn't to claim that the AB back row is particularly settled: blindside remains an issue while Savea’s eclectic positioning makes any loose forward combination a complex exercise. But, for now at least, there are a few things which are working, and that’s including Sititi’s performances off the bench. After a difficult start it would’ve been easy for a player like Sititi to spiral so the fact that he’s once again putting in performances – even in shorter bursts – is good to see.
It's far from perfect but it's also not quite a disaster either.
I think they did lift for 20 minutes: we certainly weren't able to take advantage. My point is that this extra effort tells late in the game, and I think it means any comparison of loose forward stats has to come with a little caveat. Was it better? Yes in some ways, but...
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@MiketheSnow said in Ireland v All Blacks - Chicago2:
@Tim said in Ireland v All Blacks - Chicago2:
@MiketheSnow said in Ireland v All Blacks - Chicago2:
The mitigation was it was a forward pass
That is a unique excuse. No one else saw it, nor did would it have impacted the tackle situation.
Come on ...
Kelleher asked the ref to look at the pass. Ref didn't.
Beirne wasn't set up to tackle. He was set up to brace for impact from a dummy runner.
Then it changed in an instant and he made head contact in the collision.
It certainly wasn't a tackle.
It also certainly wasnt a forward pass. Was Beirne offside?
@DaGrubster said in Ireland v All Blacks - Chicago2:
@MiketheSnow said in Ireland v All Blacks - Chicago2:
@Tim said in Ireland v All Blacks - Chicago2:
@MiketheSnow said in Ireland v All Blacks - Chicago2:
The mitigation was it was a forward pass
That is a unique excuse. No one else saw it, nor did would it have impacted the tackle situation.
Come on ...
Kelleher asked the ref to look at the pass. Ref didn't.
Beirne wasn't set up to tackle. He was set up to brace for impact from a dummy runner.
Then it changed in an instant and he made head contact in the collision.
It certainly wasn't a tackle.
It also certainly wasnt a forward pass. Was Beirne offside?
Ya what?
No he wasn't offside. It was a forward pass. The two are not related. -
genuine question - are you saying that in the first shot in that clip you don't see Beirne bounce backwards after the contact? The clip you posted shows pretty clearly from the first angle that Beirne takes three steps back immediately after the contact takes place, it actually also shows that BB actually keeps travelling forwards and spins slightly to the side line. I would argue that's passive in contact, which these days usually provides enough mitigation.
I understand it was upgraded to a 20 min red because of the level of danger, which with a shoulder to the head I can follow the logic, it just seems to fly slightly in the face of what I've seen more recently. Just my twopenneth
@Dodge said in Ireland v All Blacks - Chicago2:
genuine question - are you saying that in the first shot in that clip you don't see Beirne bounce backwards after the contact? The clip you posted shows pretty clearly from the first angle that Beirne takes three steps back immediately after the contact takes place, it actually also shows that BB actually keeps travelling forwards and spins slightly to the side line. I would argue that's passive in contact, which these days usually provides enough mitigation.
I understand it was upgraded to a 20 min red because of the level of danger, which with a shoulder to the head I can follow the logic, it just seems to fly slightly in the face of what I've seen more recently. Just my twopenneth
Looked to me like Beirne moved towards BB and pushed him away/over. Looked to me that Beirne moved back after pushing him to add momentum.
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what are the chances the red card gets rescinded?
@taniwharugby said in Ireland v All Blacks - Chicago2:
what are the chances the red card gets rescinded?
It's official, World Rugby is a joke, they need to take a long hard look at things, this does not reflect well on them and thier officials.
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@MacDazzler said in Ireland v All Blacks - Chicago2:
Ireland are definitely heading on the downslide with a aging roster and uncertainty at 10.
Although it would be good of them to pull a massive performance out of the hat and get a win against the Boks in a couple of weeks time…..
@ACT-Crusader said in Ireland v All Blacks - Chicago2:
@MacDazzler said in Ireland v All Blacks - Chicago2:
Ireland are definitely heading on the downslide with a aging roster and uncertainty at 10.
Although it would be good of them to pull a massive performance out of the hat and get a win against the Boks in a couple of weeks time…..
If they're going to win in a few weeks it's even more important to say they're on a massive slide now!
#mindgames4thewin -
@taniwharugby said in Ireland v All Blacks - Chicago2:
what are the chances the red card gets rescinded?
It's official, World Rugby is a joke, they need to take a long hard look at things, this does not reflect well on them and thier officials.
@taniwharugby said in Ireland v All Blacks - Chicago2:
@taniwharugby said in Ireland v All Blacks - Chicago2:
what are the chances the red card gets rescinded?
It's official, World Rugby is a joke, they need to take a long hard look at things, this does not reflect well on them and thier officials.
That's fucking laughable. A clear no arms tackle with a shoulder to the head and no mitigation.
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@taniwharugby said in Ireland v All Blacks - Chicago2:
@taniwharugby said in Ireland v All Blacks - Chicago2:
what are the chances the red card gets rescinded?
It's official, World Rugby is a joke, they need to take a long hard look at things, this does not reflect well on them and thier officials.
That's fucking laughable. A clear no arms tackle with a shoulder to the head and no mitigation.
@antipodean I'm more concerned with the fact the TMO had all that time to look at it, made his call and it was deemed wrong.
Does he get sanctioned for that? I mean in terms of his job, that is almighty fuck-up, and as some have said, while we will never know, it has potentially impacted the outcome of the game.
Credibility of the sport continues to fall.
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@antipodean I'm more concerned with the fact the TMO had all that time to look at it, made his call and it was deemed wrong.
Does he get sanctioned for that? I mean in terms of his job, that is almighty fuck-up, and as some have said, while we will never know, it has potentially impacted the outcome of the game.
Credibility of the sport continues to fall.
@taniwharugby said in Ireland v All Blacks - Chicago2:
@antipodean I'm more concerned with the fact the TMO had all that time to look at it, made his call and it was deemed wrong.
Does he get sanctioned for that? I mean in terms of his job, that is almighty fuck-up, and as some have said, while we will never know, it has potentially impacted the outcome of the game.
Credibility of the sport continues to fall.
It is a joke. In this case, I thought a YC looked about right, but by the letter of the law and recent interpretation, it should be a RC.
There has to be a system that allows the game to flow with some penalty for the player, but doesn't ruin the event for fans.
I think I've settled on a YC for all of these, with the player replaced after 10 mins.
If you are out of replacements, you can't send another out.
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As someone who is in favour of no further sanction, and someone who doesn't think the game is best served by that situation being a red card... deeming it an incorrect call is bizarre and means we continue to have no consistency, and have no idea what the rules actually are.
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@taniwharugby said in Ireland v All Blacks - Chicago2:
@antipodean I'm more concerned with the fact the TMO had all that time to look at it, made his call and it was deemed wrong.
Does he get sanctioned for that? I mean in terms of his job, that is almighty fuck-up, and as some have said, while we will never know, it has potentially impacted the outcome of the game.
Credibility of the sport continues to fall.
It is a joke. In this case, I thought a YC looked about right, but by the letter of the law and recent interpretation, it should be a RC.
There has to be a system that allows the game to flow with some penalty for the player, but doesn't ruin the event for fans.
I think I've settled on a YC for all of these, with the player replaced after 10 mins.
If you are out of replacements, you can't send another out.
@gt12 said in Ireland v All Blacks - Chicago2:
@taniwharugby said in Ireland v All Blacks - Chicago2:
@antipodean I'm more concerned with the fact the TMO had all that time to look at it, made his call and it was deemed wrong.
Does he get sanctioned for that? I mean in terms of his job, that is almighty fuck-up, and as some have said, while we will never know, it has potentially impacted the outcome of the game.
Credibility of the sport continues to fall.
If you are out of replacements, you can't send another out.
It would be nice if this rule was applied in general.
