All Blacks v Argentina I
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@Wurzel said in All Blacks v Argentina I:
It takes some effort to play in four All Blacks Test wins and never impose yourself on a game.
Took Vaa'i more than that, to be fair.
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Random thoughts:
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Don't go for blaming just Christie for Argentina getting back into the game. Things went to poo collectively. And lets face it, he;s probably no. 5 in the pecking order
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Liked the way we battled back and scored two tries by doing the basics well. If that was an on-field leadership, kudos to Ardie as it wasn't coming from Scott Barrett.
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Agree with all the comments about the backs playing too fast/flashy. Who runs the backline? Is anyone running the backline? Can;t expect a rookie 13 to shine playing in that environment. Nor Roigard to manufacture a magically transformation. Serious work needed,
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ALB was awful. Admire his loyalty after being fucked around by coach after coach but he really should hang up his boots
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We really have some depth in the tight 5. Think we'll have a settled Vaa'i/RD/Wallace combination by the end of the RC. Can't wait.
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@Victor-Meldrew said in All Blacks v Argentina I:
@Wurzel said in All Blacks v Argentina I:
It takes some effort to play in four All Blacks Test wins and never impose yourself on a game.
Took Vaa'i more than that, to be fair.
Due to injury Vaai had to start his 2nd test at lock in an Eden Park Bledisloe (after Wallabies drew test 1 the week before) as a 20 year old and he had a fine game - second test of the Foster era
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@Chuck72 said in All Blacks v Argentina I:
I don't understand the desire of some to move Jordan to wing to accommodate love. Jordan is one of our few world class players and needs as many minutes at 15
Love on the right wing is definitely worth a try though
Keep Jordan at fullback and move Love to 10.
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@Victor-Meldrew said in All Blacks v Argentina I:
@Wurzel said in All Blacks v Argentina I:
It takes some effort to play in four All Blacks Test wins and never impose yourself on a game.
Took Vaa'i more than that, to be fair.
Fuck me, there's some weird revisionism going on when it comes to Vai'i. He had a good first season in black. I think his anti-fluffer on here (can't remember who it was) did a good job convincing everyone he was always crap.
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@canefan said in All Blacks v Argentina I:
@His-Bobness said in All Blacks v Argentina I:
Gregor Paul in the NZ Herald has astutely summed up the problem - which has been evident for a while now but which the coaches, with the ‘brand’ ambition to play thousand-mile-an-hour rugby, refuse to confront.
In other words, while they now have a forward platform and set-piece game as good as anyone, the coaches are undoing the good work with their pressure on a below average (by AB standards) backline to play at such a speed that it sacrifices precision, efficiency and cohesion.
“The obvious gulf between the coaching vision and the team’s ability to produce it leaves the All Blacks in a fascinating quandary about whether to pull back from this notion that they can run opponents off their feet and to lean more heavily into slowing things down and playing around their set-piece strength,” Paul writes.
“As unimaginable, or even unpalatable as it is, the All Blacks have to consider giving up on their goal of being the world’s great entertainers and accept that their pack has the core skills, size and technical proficiency to crush the life out of opponents.”
There can be a happy medium. We can still play expansive rugby, but we should pick and choose the right time
Yes, i have thought for some time - and we have talked about it here - that this hame st extreme pace is silly in todays game.
Accuracy is more important as is the ability to vary the game and not be predictable.
Look how well we went when we kept it in the forwards for ST’s tries. But we also did well in the first half with width.
Varied game plan executed well will have teams not knowing how we are going to attack them will be far more potent and succesful approach than trying to play helter skelter rugby that breaks down after a few phases
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@Nepia said in All Blacks v Argentina I:
@Victor-Meldrew said in All Blacks v Argentina I:
@Wurzel said in All Blacks v Argentina I:
It takes some effort to play in four All Blacks Test wins and never impose yourself on a game.
Took Vaa'i more than that, to be fair.
Fuck me, there's some weird revisionism going on when it comes to Vai'i. He had a good first season in black. I think his anti-fluffer on here (can't remember who it was) did a good job convincing everyone he was always crap.
Yeah, nah.
Personally think I was his his super fluffer, and thought he was just about done prior to his breakthrough last year.
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I tend to agree with Wilson and Mils on their comments on Proctor during the Breakdown tonight. Our game plan atm really doesn’t enable him to have much opportunity to create on attack like he’s done so consistently for the Canes. He probably got one chance to attack today and he made a tackle break that eventually ended up leading to the second Reece try. He’s spending most of his time cleaning rucks or chasing kicks right now because we aren't moving the ball away too far from the forwards. Wilson said it’s pretty bloody harsh to judge Proctor fully when you’re not giving him the ball to show what he can do. Marshall is talking about moving Ioane back to midfield but Mils quickly responded and argued the fact we need to stop chopping and changing in such a crucial position and actually give him some ball to play with.
Maybe get the ball through the backline more than a couple times a game and actually use the players that we have at our disposal. That’s where I’d prefer McKenzie over Barrett at 10 because he actually gets the ball out instead of aimlessly kicking the ball away for 90% of the game.
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@booboo said in All Blacks v Argentina I:
@Nepia said in All Blacks v Argentina I:
@Victor-Meldrew said in All Blacks v Argentina I:
@Wurzel said in All Blacks v Argentina I:
It takes some effort to play in four All Blacks Test wins and never impose yourself on a game.
Took Vaa'i more than that, to be fair.
Fuck me, there's some weird revisionism going on when it comes to Vai'i. He had a good first season in black. I think his anti-fluffer on here (can't remember who it was) did a good job convincing everyone he was always crap.
Yeah, nah.
Personally think I was his his super fluffer, and thought he was just about done prior to his breakthrough last year.
Both can be true. His debut year was 2020. His breakthrough year was 2024. The issue is the 3 years in between.
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I think we are being a bit too hard on the team.
Yes there is a lot of improvements we can make (which is exciting) but dont forget we are in Argentina, playing against a very good Pumas side that came out fighting in the 2nd half)
The pumas, who beat the Lions team that beat the wobs team that just smashed the boks.
We had a great 1st half, and then regained control after the pumas fought back. Thats fantastic, we struggled to do that last year. We did it against a good side, in an away test. We are sre not going to dominate teams for 80 min’s
We have had a very disjointed AB season so far due to injuries so we havent really managed to build any cohesion outside of the tight 5 (as i have been saying since ‘23 - this is the real strength of this Ab side and its only going to improve with so much quality depth now).
We still have 6 top line players unavailable.
Im pleased with BB’s goalkicking but i do think he is the reason ourbackline doesnt look so fluid.
The backline with DMac last year looked far better
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@Nepia said in All Blacks v Argentina I:
@Victor-Meldrew said in All Blacks v Argentina I:
@Wurzel said in All Blacks v Argentina I:
It takes some effort to play in four All Blacks Test wins and never impose yourself on a game.
Took Vaa'i more than that, to be fair.
Fuck me, there's some weird revisionism going on when it comes to Vai'i. He had a good first season in black. I think his anti-fluffer on here (can't remember who it was) did a good job convincing everyone he was always crap.
My point was it took more than 3.5 Tests for Vaa'i to come good/impose himself, not that Vaa'i was shit-house.
There were also many who wanted him dropped though but that was probably as he was a Chief....
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@Canes4life said in All Blacks v Argentina I:
I tend to agree with Wilson and Mils on their comments on Proctor during the Breakdown tonight. Our game plan atm really doesn’t enable him to have much opportunity to create on attack like he’s done so consistently for the Canes. He probably got one chance to attack today and he made a tackle break that eventually ended up leading to the second Reece try. He’s spending most of his time cleaning rucks or chasing kicks right now because we aren't moving the ball away too far from the forwards. Wilson said it’s pretty bloody harsh to judge Proctor fully when you’re not giving him the ball to show what he can do. Marshall is talking about moving Ioane back to midfield but Mils quickly responded and argued the fact we need to stop chopping and changing in such a crucial position and actually give him some ball to play with.
Maybe get the ball through the backline more than a couple times a game and actually use the players that we have at our disposal. That’s where I’d prefer McKenzie over Barrett at 10 because he actually gets the ball out instead of aimlessly kicking the ball away for 90% of the game.
I don't think the game plan / performance of others around him allows Proctor to flourish, but there's also plenty of garbage things he's doing that isn't really a product of slow ball, bad passes etc. His defence in particular has been very suspect.
I'm happy for the All Blacks to stick with him because he has shown great promise for the Canes but he's definitely not doing any better at 13 than Ioane was.
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Vaai had always played to higher standard compared to Proctor so far. Plus Vaai debut3d when he was 20. Billy Proctor is 26. Older than Vaai is after 5 years experience at test level.
Players were never given a whole season starting to try and come right in the past.
I prefer Lam at centre to Rieko at the Blues however Rieko was far more reliable than what either Proctor or ALB have been showing. Riekos limited game is also better suited to our powerful tight five.
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A good Test to watch. Can’t say I’ve read everything in the thread but Proctor seemed to pop up quite a few times when skimming through so thought it would it be interesting to focus my rewatch on his game.
So why Billy Proctor?
While I think Proctor has an underrated attacking game (SRP: 43% tackle evasion, which makes him one slippery customer), it seems to me that his selection at outside centre is mostly based around his defence. And yes, I understand that’s a strange point to make when his most notable moment in the past 4 Tests was his miss on Attissogbé in the first French game in Dunedin. But what I mean is that I believe the selectors value his defensive style of play.One very noticeable aspect of this AB season is that the team is increasingly successful in its implementation of defensive line speed. They already tried to introduce more defensive pressure in 2024, but this was often met with very mixed results (see the Wellington Argentina Test, for example). While the defence is by no means perfect, at least the players are showing an increased understanding of their roles and responsibilities on the field.
One of these principles is that the ABs work with a split midfield in defensive multiphase. After defending the first phase of a set piece strike together, the midfielders would each move to one side of the field. There, they have the task of organizing and bringing defensive line speed, each midfielder connecting with their outside winger in order to shut down backdoor plays or sweeping moves.
It is in this regard that someone like Proctor becomes valuable. Proctor excels in reading backdoor plays and is consistently able to shut these plays down, catching opponents on the backfoot and creating potential turnovers. In Super Rugby Pacific, he had one of the highest rates of dominant tackles across the competition (14.9%), reflecting his proficiency in catching ball carriers behind the gain line.
Against Argentina
In the weekend’s Test match against Argentina, Proctor gave plenty of examples why he is selected to perform this task. Argentina have an excellent attacking shape, using similar diamond pods and first five looping plays made famous at Leinster, courtesy of Contepomi’s Dublin connection. Early in the match, Proctor had a chance to show his abilities, after Jordie Barrett kicked long from his own 22, leading to an Argentina attack from kick return.With Argentina setting up a midfield ruck and with plenty of numbers to the openside, Proctor has as his job to bring line speed in order to either deter the wide attack or reach man and ball at the same time, if they do decide to go there.
In the next phase, Albornoz goes flat to Oviedo who is immediately wrapped up by Proctor, driven back in the tackle and subsequently driven off the ball, after the AB 13 quickly got back to his feet to initiate the counter-ruck alongside Rieko Ioane.
This is why the Hurricanes centre is in the AB midfield: organize the defence, initiate line speed, connect with the outside backs and pressure the opposition recycle behind the gain line. The ABs win the penalty and march deep inside the Argentina 22.
Twenty minutes later, Proctor and Ioane would repeat their double act, this time reading the play well from an Argentina scrum attack, Chocobares throwing the backdoor to Albornoz who quickly tried to transfer Delguy.
First, Proctor is nearly able to grab man and ball again but Ioane is on hand to finish the defensive stop comprehensively. The ABs are unlucky that Ioane is pinged for a tackle without the ball – despite Delguy first having the ball, making him a legitimate target – otherwise it would’ve been another defensive win.
So why not Billy Proctor?
So far, so good, I’d say. Proctor is a centre who works well in Tamati Ellison’s defensive system, with the potential to eventually come alive on attack as well. Then again, there are a few reasons to be critical of Proctor, some of them systems-related, others from a purely individual perspective.Looking back at the split midfield defensive set-up, it’s clear it works well in shutting down outside threats (if your midfielders are able to read the play well, that is). But like any system, it often just means that you’re relocating your vulnerabilities. In this case, the seam between each midfielder and their inside forwards is often ripe for the picking.
For an example, we can turn to the 49th minute. Argentina has a lineout attack inside the AB half. After first defending together for the initial move, Jordie and Proctor quickly split, Barrett moving to the right hand side, with Proctor on the left. With Barrett now moving to the right wing in order to organize line speed there, it leaves Ardie defending in the midfield, inside Proctor.
With Argentina mostly shut out in the first half, they’ve clearly discussed other possibilities during halftime, the space such as that between Savea and Proctor here a likely topic of discussionUsing this system asks a lot of forwards like Savea who suddenly has a critical role in midfield defence. It becomes apparent pretty quickly that this responsibility – shooting up to close the space and quickly retreating to get back onside – isn’t a particular strong suit of the number 8, first being slow to connect in the advance, then being behind in getting back onside.
Watch Ardie in the midfield, creating a fracture in the defensive line
In the very next phase, Albornoz would easily exploit this disconnect, floating a ball between Savea and Proctor for Oviedo to run hard onto, splitting them open for the important line break.
While it’s hard to lay the blame at someone’s feet without hearing what’s being said on the field, you’d think this is most likely a comms issue. Here, Proctor’s inexperience likely works against him. Still, he needs to coach Savea to be aware of the different threats and connect properly with his insides and outsides.
A second critical note can be boiled down to purely athletic factors. While Proctor clearly has a good head on his shoulders, his execution can at times be found wanting. For example, in the 12th minute, Proctor again correctly reads the Argentina attacking play but allows Cinti to step out of the tackle.
While it doesn’t lead to a particularly bad territory loss, these kinds of tackles need to be made, since there won’t always be a proper defensive scramble available. It’s something that Jordie Barrett unfortunately had to find out the hard way for the Albornoz try early in the 2nd half.
And while I like the fact that Robertson seems more inclined to select glue players in glue positions, in recent years the All Blacks have escaped with wins they shouldn’t have, simply because they had more talented players across the park than the other team (I like to call it the ‘Beauden Barrett special’). With Proctor, you lose that particular gambit. Provide him with terrible ball, he will just get turned over.
A player like Leicester Fainga’anuku won’t provide you with the same defensive reads as Proctor (76.6% tackle completion at Toulon, with only 5.6% of those dominant) but in these kinds of situations, it wouldn’t surprise you to see the former make something out of nothing, whether through an offload or by simply bulldozing through contact. So far at least, the coaches seem quite firm in the decision they’ve made for the kind of player they want at 13.
Summary
So far, Billy Proctor seems to be mostly doing what I believe he’s being selected for: he’s organizing and bringing line speed from outside in, he’s connecting well with his outsides (whether it’s Ioane or Reece) and he’s tackling at a high rate of dominance (18% across his 3 Tests in 2025, which is comparable to England’s Henry Slade during the 2025 Six Nations). The line speed defence is also running increasingly smoothly but as all systems are apt to, is showing frailties in other areas.So is Proctor showing enough at 13? Lienert-Brown did well in the third Test against France (20% tackle dominance and a well-taken try) but his continuous ill-discipline (4 penalties and a yellow card in less than 80 minutes played total) makes him a hard case to argue for. Fainga’anuku, with his utility value as being able to play midfield, wing and loose forward, seems like an ideal bench player while others, like AJ Lam, might find it difficult to gain selection, with an already congested squad.
Proctor’s objectives, on the other hand, seem relatively clearcut: make sure to finish your defensive reads and start finding ways to contribute more on attack, for example, by working harder to stay alive in contact . But if his development at Super Rugby is any indication, then there’s reason to think that it should only be a matter of time.
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Why did we start comparing Tupou Vaa'i and Billy Proctor?
Will admit I wasn't entirely focused on the match but looked like Finau did a couple of very good things off the pine. Will be very interesting to see how Razor switches things up this week. If Vaa'i becomes a full-time blindside flank then a number of the loosies in the squad will be on very borrowed time.
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It's kind of ludicrous that in the space of 9 months we have unearthed Holland at lock, Vaai at 6 and Sititi at 8.
By jove the NZ rugby gods deserve a thank you and a raised glass of Heineken -
Just said a little prayer for a 10
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@BerniesCorner
Muliaina will be the man ... but after 2027. The cupboard looks bare until then with Razor hesitating to give DMac the reins, with BB more rocks than diamonds these days, and with an untried Reuben Love. Mo'unga will probably be the All Blacks 10 at the next World Cup but I fear he won't get back from Japan better than he was before leaving.
