All Blacks v Argentina I
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The criticism of BB here is both valid and a bit over the top. A lot of the criticism centres around the chip kicks, but as I've said a few times on here, that's a team wide gameplan. Beauden does it most as he's at 10, but DMac does it, Jordan did it last weekend, many others have as well. It's 100% gameplan to keep the rush defense guessing. Not sure I agree with it, but it's not a Beauden problem.
The main issue I see with him is the distance on his clearances, but the coaches obviously see his upsides as outweighing that negative. If we have Roigard starting at 9 then that negates that issue somewhat.
Because outside of the kicking from hand, Beauden has been fucking excellent overall and created a lot. People really overlook some of the outstanding work he does to create tries, and focus on a chip kick gone wrong instead.
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@nostrildamus said in All Blacks v Argentina I:
The French 10 praised BB. I imagine coaches and opposition see unpredictability while some of us on here see hospital passes and shitty kicking. Or at least, pebbles and rhinestones.
Much of it is so unpredictable that no one except the kicker seems to be aware the kick is coming. And the chance of recovery drops because the chase is either poor or non existent
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@No-Quarter said in All Blacks v Argentina I:
The criticism of BB here is both valid and a bit over the top. A lot of the criticism centres around the chip kicks, but as I've said a few times on here, that's a team wide gameplan. Beauden does it most as he's at 10, but DMac does it, Jordan did it last weekend, many others have as well. It's 100% gameplan to keep the rush defense guessing. Not sure I agree with it, but it's not a Beauden problem.
The main issue I see with him is the distance on his clearances, but the coaches obviously see his upsides as outweighing that negative. If we have Roigard starting at 9 then that negates that issue somewhat.
Because outside of the kicking from hand, Beauden has been fucking excellent overall and created a lot. People really overlook some of the outstanding work he does to create tries, and focus on a chip kick gone wrong instead.
The Pumas showed how it’s done.
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@BerniesCorner said in All Blacks v Argentina I:
@Dan54 how do they justify the 10 giving away possession through ineffective kicking
I don't ask them, I don't even really have an opinion. All I was saying that it seems pundits and coaches seem to think he best option.
I just guessing they see something some of us don't. -
@No-Quarter said in All Blacks v Argentina I:
The criticism of BB here is both valid and a bit over the top. A lot of the criticism centres around the chip kicks, but as I've said a few times on here, that's a team wide gameplan. Beauden does it most as he's at 10, but DMac does it, Jordan did it last weekend, many others have as well. It's 100% gameplan to keep the rush defense guessing. Not sure I agree with it, but it's not a Beauden problem.
The main issue I see with him is the distance on his clearances, but the coaches obviously see his upsides as outweighing that negative. If we have Roigard starting at 9 then that negates that issue somewhat.
Because outside of the kicking from hand, Beauden has been fucking excellent overall and created a lot. People really overlook some of the outstanding work he does to create tries, and focus on a chip kick gone wrong instead.
Unfortuantly NQ, when a lot make a decision on how they feel about a player, they see exactly what suits their prejudice or whatever it is. If a player who they against does 14 good things in game and four bad , the 4 bad is what is pounced on.
This is not just a BB thing or this site, but I have seen on most sites , poster will remember a cock up or bad game a player (or refs etc) had quite sometime ago to boldter argument. I think it human nature? -
i would put a lot more stock in what the ex-player talking heads said if they just once had the nuts to call out an established player. Never fucking happens.
Newbie? Then it's a fucking free-for-all, but the established guys get a free ride from the media.
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@mariner4life said in All Blacks v Argentina I:
i would put a lot more stock in what the ex-player talking heads said if they just once had the nuts to call out an established player. Never fucking happens.
Newbie? Then it's a fucking free-for-all, but the established guys get a free ride from the media.
I was about to say much the same. Ex-players don't want to criticise current players and a lot of the media seem like they'd just love to be mates with the players so spend most of their time acting like absolute sycophants towards them.
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@ShaquilleOatmeal said in All Blacks v Argentina I:
@mariner4life said in All Blacks v Argentina I:
i would put a lot more stock in what the ex-player talking heads said if they just once had the nuts to call out an established player. Never fucking happens.
Newbie? Then it's a fucking free-for-all, but the established guys get a free ride from the media.
I was about to say much the same. Ex-players don't want to criticise current players and a lot of the media seem like they'd just love to be mates with the players so spend most of their time acting like absolute sycophants towards them.
For sure up to a point, also they actually write under their own names, so have to stand by what they say. Look at Campese for instance, ex player who rips into everyone etc, and now saying he obviously got it wrong and may have to stop commenting on Aus rugby. So loss of income etc, on a forum we all just do it under non de plumes etc, and so few read it, we can't do any damage to anyone .
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@Dan54 said in All Blacks v Argentina I:
@ShaquilleOatmeal said in All Blacks v Argentina I:
@mariner4life said in All Blacks v Argentina I:
i would put a lot more stock in what the ex-player talking heads said if they just once had the nuts to call out an established player. Never fucking happens.
Newbie? Then it's a fucking free-for-all, but the established guys get a free ride from the media.
I was about to say much the same. Ex-players don't want to criticise current players and a lot of the media seem like they'd just love to be mates with the players so spend most of their time acting like absolute sycophants towards them.
For sure up to a point, also they actually write under their own names, so have to stand by what they say. Look at Campese for instance, ex player who rips into everyone etc, and now saying he obviously got it wrong and may have to stop commenting on Aus rugby. So loss of income etc, on a forum we all just do it under non de plumes etc, and so few read it, we can't do any damage to anyone .
Campo isn't a great example, the man can't resist putting his foot in his mouth
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@canefan said in All Blacks v Argentina I:
@Dan54 said in All Blacks v Argentina I:
@ShaquilleOatmeal said in All Blacks v Argentina I:
@mariner4life said in All Blacks v Argentina I:
i would put a lot more stock in what the ex-player talking heads said if they just once had the nuts to call out an established player. Never fucking happens.
Newbie? Then it's a fucking free-for-all, but the established guys get a free ride from the media.
I was about to say much the same. Ex-players don't want to criticise current players and a lot of the media seem like they'd just love to be mates with the players so spend most of their time acting like absolute sycophants towards them.
For sure up to a point, also they actually write under their own names, so have to stand by what they say. Look at Campese for instance, ex player who rips into everyone etc, and now saying he obviously got it wrong and may have to stop commenting on Aus rugby. So loss of income etc, on a forum we all just do it under non de plumes etc, and so few read it, we can't do any damage to anyone .
Campo isn't a great example, the man can't resist putting his foot in his mouth
Yep I know that, but you get my point. Anyone we don't agree with in media, we tend to think is an idiot, so it's a lose lose really isn't it.
Also remember a few years back when Rod Kafer was putting boot into AB players? He turned up at test match, the AB coaching staff ignored him and he wouldn't do any interviews with him? So stuffed up his job.
As I say we can rubbish anyone with very little knowledge with no comebacks , and none taking any notice, they can't.
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@Dan54 Dan, you're making my point for me. We can't on one hand say that the talking heads have to report a certain way to keep their jobs, and then be expected to rely on what they say as "expert analysis".
It's head office PR
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@canefan said in All Blacks v Argentina I:
@Dan54 said in All Blacks v Argentina I:
@ShaquilleOatmeal said in All Blacks v Argentina I:
@mariner4life said in All Blacks v Argentina I:
i would put a lot more stock in what the ex-player talking heads said if they just once had the nuts to call out an established player. Never fucking happens.
Newbie? Then it's a fucking free-for-all, but the established guys get a free ride from the media.
I was about to say much the same. Ex-players don't want to criticise current players and a lot of the media seem like they'd just love to be mates with the players so spend most of their time acting like absolute sycophants towards them.
For sure up to a point, also they actually write under their own names, so have to stand by what they say. Look at Campese for instance, ex player who rips into everyone etc, and now saying he obviously got it wrong and may have to stop commenting on Aus rugby. So loss of income etc, on a forum we all just do it under non de plumes etc, and so few read it, we can't do any damage to anyone .
Campo isn't a great example, the man can't resist putting his foot in his mouth
He's mastered the internal swallow-your-own goose step!
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@Dan54 said in All Blacks v Argentina I:
@ShaquilleOatmeal said in All Blacks v Argentina I:
@mariner4life said in All Blacks v Argentina I:
i would put a lot more stock in what the ex-player talking heads said if they just once had the nuts to call out an established player. Never fucking happens.
Newbie? Then it's a fucking free-for-all, but the established guys get a free ride from the media.
I was about to say much the same. Ex-players don't want to criticise current players and a lot of the media seem like they'd just love to be mates with the players so spend most of their time acting like absolute sycophants towards them.
For sure up to a point, also they actually write under their own names, so have to stand by what they say. Look at Campese for instance, ex player who rips into everyone etc, and now saying he obviously got it wrong and may have to stop commenting on Aus rugby. So loss of income etc, on a forum we all just do it under non de plumes etc, and so few read it, we can't do any damage to anyone .
Yes but in Campo's case he was relying on his expert insight to get paid, and, well, his expertise looks a bit shaky now.
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@mariner4life said in All Blacks v Argentina I:
@Dan54 Dan, you're making my point for me. We can't on one hand say that the talking heads have to report a certain way to keep their jobs, and then be expected to rely on what they say as "expert analysis".
It's head office PR
I never really take a lot of notice except find them good when discussing tactics etc. Mainly because they all been through it.
Matfield on podcast was obviously talking about Boks most, and said he thought Libbock etc stuffed up by not sticking to gameplan once they got ahead. So maybe that was fair enough, so I never need more than that anyway.
I not sure how that PR, saying he thought they needed Pollard etc to control game?
I agree with what you say in general, they can't say too much, and we can say what we like as we under non de plumes and noone remembers what we said 5 minutes after reading it.
I will add the only ones that matter are the coaches really isn't it? -
@No-Quarter I think BB has been good in many aspects but tactical kicking is not one of them.
It maybe just me but I remember DC and even way back Foxy applying pressure through astute territorial kicking. Not dinks or crosskicks. On too many occasions now the short kick goes up there's no chance of us getting it or nobody can be bothered to chase it.
The other issue is JB has a longer punt and we should use it more. -
I don't think you can compare a modern 10 to Fox, as the game is just too different now. Lifting in lineouts for example...
But we are still definitely suffering our post-DC hangover. I mean he was the GOAT, but every 10 since then has been judged harshly against him, with any perceived weaknesses the focus rather than what they actually bring to the table. Even Cruden, one of the better 10s we've had, copped it because he couldn't kick it as long as DC.
Fact is there are very few 10s in the world that have ever had the complete game DC had. Other sides work with what they've got, and we have to do the same. Our best options are BB, DMac and soon Mo'unga. Like @Chris-B I am also not as down beat on our options at 10, they'd make any international squad and all players have a lot of experience and upside, we just have to ensure our gameplan is maximising their their strengths.
I've been happy with BB this year, goal kicking has been very good and he's been a threat ball in hand. Being able to bring a player like DMac off the bench is a bit of a luxury, and when we add Mo'unga to the mix and players like Love developing we're actually in a pretty good place depth wise.
And lastly on JB, he does have a big boot, but he's nowhere near as accurate as the others. He'd be prone to kicking it out on the full or kicking it too long which can be very costly.
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@BerniesCorner I think part of the issue with JB clearing is that hes got a long wind up, he cant clear as quickly so puts himself under pressure of charge down. Additionally, if you see him in the pocket as opposed to set in the line, it makes it even more obvious hes clearing. Really restricts his use within our 22.
The other thing about kicking long from open play is that its only really beneficial if you find grass. Back fields are significantly more organised now than even 10 years ago, let alone 40 years ago where people are thinking of these golden days of kicking for territory like fox was around. Hoofing it down field to a prepared full back, wing or 10 is arguably more dangerous than a bomb/chip, as they get a good 5-10 seconds to find space, find their forwards, find anyone out of position to exploit.
Sure, BB (and others) dont always nail these shorter kicks but the strategy is definitely targeted at manipulating rush Ds and kicking to put pressure on the opposition structure in my opinion
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Roigard showed recently what good kicking can achieve.
Some of the kicks recently from 10 actually relieved pressure for the opposition
Overall we are in a good place but this kicking thing is a work on. -
I think this shows how easily people (the general public) get caught up in the highlights and overlook the fundamentals. When people look back at Dan Carter, they remember the chip-and-chase against the Lions or other moments of brilliance. But they forget that what made him world-class was his complete skill set: an accurate kicking game, smart decision-making, an ability to control and direct play around the field. Because of that, when we search for the “next great first five,” the focus of the casual viewer often shifts to the flashy, running players, rather than the steady organisers with strong kicking games who actually win matches. Over time, that might be part of the reason why so many first fives at Super Rugby level fit that mould — exciting with ball in hand, but lacking the organisational skills and kicking game that actually win test matches.
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