All Blacks 2025
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@brodean said in All Blacks 2025:
@canefan said in All Blacks 2025:
So post 2015 we have had a succession of coaches that don't appear to be able to get the best out of a bunch of pretty good players. Is that a failure to relate, is it fault on the part of the players, or more likely a bunch of factors that made these guys leave?
Its a coaching/management failure. Every one of these guys could have been world class just by giving them test matches, experience and managing them better.
Victor Vito
Steve Luatua
Liam Squire
Vaea Fifita
Akira IoaneIf you look at the current squad I'd say only Finau at 26 has similar physical talents to these guys. Maybe Parker too.
That's why Finau should be persevered with. Just stick with him. He's only played 1 easier test against Japan but we have won 83.3% of tests that he has played in. We've only won 60% of tests Parker has played in.
Finau is not costing us tests. His contributions have been underrated. Continuing to play him is low risk if we win when he plays but the upside of his development is more than any other 6 option we have in the country at the moment. Maybe Wrampling-Alec has potential but he needs some solid Super experience. Howden loses a lot of ball. Haig and Stoddart need some wins under their belt. Flanders is better suited to 8.
Finau's half way to 20 to 30 tests. After that we can probably get some top games out of him - he has the potential to be world class at that stage. Just keep developing him.
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@brodean said in All Blacks 2025:
@canefan said in All Blacks 2025:
So post 2015 we have had a succession of coaches that don't appear to be able to get the best out of a bunch of pretty good players. Is that a failure to relate, is it fault on the part of the players, or more likely a bunch of factors that made these guys leave?
Its a coaching/management failure. Every one of these guys could have been world class just by giving them test matches, experience and managing them better.
Victor Vito
Steve Luatua
Liam Squire
Vaea Fifita
Akira IoaneI do't think being given lack of chances applied to them all. Luatua, Fifita, and Akira yep, they could have had more. But:
Vito got lots of chances, he was just up against Kaino for the main spot, and Messam for the back up (who had a purple patch of form when Kaino was out for a bit). But in spite of that he had a good AB career. and won two RWC's.
Squire was injured then had his mental health issues which meant he couldn't really nail down the spot.
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@Nepia said in All Blacks 2025:
@brodean said in All Blacks 2025:
@canefan said in All Blacks 2025:
So post 2015 we have had a succession of coaches that don't appear to be able to get the best out of a bunch of pretty good players. Is that a failure to relate, is it fault on the part of the players, or more likely a bunch of factors that made these guys leave?
Its a coaching/management failure. Every one of these guys could have been world class just by giving them test matches, experience and managing them better.
Victor Vito
Steve Luatua
Liam Squire
Vaea Fifita
Akira IoaneI do't think being given lack of chances applied to them all. Luatua, Fifita, and Akira yep, they could have had more. But:
Vito got lots of chances, he was just up against Kaino for the main spot, and Messam for the back up (who had a purple patch of form when Kaino was out for a bit). But in spite of that he had a good AB career. and won two RWC's.
Squire was injured then had his mental health issues which meant he couldn't really nail down the spot.
as the bloke who has been calling for him to get the jersey since he was still coming off the bench at the Chiefs, i should agree, but...
i don't think he is fit enough (yet) which limits his repeated involvements that these coaches value above all else. I also think the coaches have deliberately limited his physicality on defense (something i think they have done to everyone) out of fear of cards. If you watch the way he tackles in black compared to in a Chiefs jersey they are miles apart. He also either gets stationed out wide (our pattern) or spends too much time there, which sort of limits why we would pick him.
That said, he's a high quality lineout forward, on both jumping and lifting, his ruck technique is excellent, and he's a big body. I also think his solitary start this year was far better than he was given credit for. I think there is far too much there to ignore, but given what he has been given this year, i think he's closer to missing the squad than getting a start. Which again you could say is a missed opportunity, especially given i don't think Parker has done much.
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@Nepia said in All Blacks 2025:
@brodean said in All Blacks 2025:
@canefan said in All Blacks 2025:
So post 2015 we have had a succession of coaches that don't appear to be able to get the best out of a bunch of pretty good players. Is that a failure to relate, is it fault on the part of the players, or more likely a bunch of factors that made these guys leave?
Its a coaching/management failure. Every one of these guys could have been world class just by giving them test matches, experience and managing them better.
Victor Vito
Steve Luatua
Liam Squire
Vaea Fifita
Akira IoaneI do't think being given lack of chances applied to them all. Luatua, Fifita, and Akira yep, they could have had more. But:
Vito got lots of chances, he was just up against Kaino for the main spot, and Messam for the back up (who had a purple patch of form when Kaino was out for a bit). But in spite of that he had a good AB career. and won two RWC's.
Squire was injured then had his mental health issues which meant he couldn't really nail down the spot.
For Vito he was 28 when he left and had 30 odd tests under his belt. He was ready kick on after his apprenticeship and they should have nailed him down
Regarding Squire, speculation, but could he have been managed better so that his mental health issues didn't spiral out of control?
The way Hansen managed Akira Ioane publicly caused Ioane to have his own brief mental health challenges and his weight spiraled. So I suspect that along with the way he treated Luatua that Squire was not getting the support he needed - a management failure. There needs to be systems and support in place for players to cope with injuries etc.
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@brodean said in All Blacks 2025:
@Nepia said in All Blacks 2025:
@brodean said in All Blacks 2025:
@canefan said in All Blacks 2025:
So post 2015 we have had a succession of coaches that don't appear to be able to get the best out of a bunch of pretty good players. Is that a failure to relate, is it fault on the part of the players, or more likely a bunch of factors that made these guys leave?
Its a coaching/management failure. Every one of these guys could have been world class just by giving them test matches, experience and managing them better.
Victor Vito
Steve Luatua
Liam Squire
Vaea Fifita
Akira IoaneI do't think being given lack of chances applied to them all. Luatua, Fifita, and Akira yep, they could have had more. But:
Vito got lots of chances, he was just up against Kaino for the main spot, and Messam for the back up (who had a purple patch of form when Kaino was out for a bit). But in spite of that he had a good AB career. and won two RWC's.
Squire was injured then had his mental health issues which meant he couldn't really nail down the spot.
For Vito he was 28 when he left and had 30 odd tests under his belt. He was ready kick on after his apprenticeship and they should have nailed him down
Regarding Squire, speculation, but could he have been managed better so that his mental health issues didn't spiral out of control?
The way Hansen managed Akira Ioane publicly caused Ioane to have his own brief mental health challenges and his weight spiraled. So I suspect that along with the way he treated Luatua that Squire was not getting the support he needed - a management failure. There needs to be systems and support in place for players to cope with injuries etc.
I loved Squire...seemed like such a cool dude too...
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I loved the way Liam Squire played.
But he had sooooo many injuries.
Bad ones too, and a really, really bad one even before he made it to pro rugby.I think all that would have broken anyone.
Just thinkin, you couldabeen a great, but known’ your body just aint guna let it happen.
Soooooo annoying. -
@brodean said in All Blacks 2025:
@Nepia said in All Blacks 2025:
@brodean said in All Blacks 2025:
@canefan said in All Blacks 2025:
So post 2015 we have had a succession of coaches that don't appear to be able to get the best out of a bunch of pretty good players. Is that a failure to relate, is it fault on the part of the players, or more likely a bunch of factors that made these guys leave?
Its a coaching/management failure. Every one of these guys could have been world class just by giving them test matches, experience and managing them better.
Victor Vito
Steve Luatua
Liam Squire
Vaea Fifita
Akira IoaneI do't think being given lack of chances applied to them all. Luatua, Fifita, and Akira yep, they could have had more. But:
Vito got lots of chances, he was just up against Kaino for the main spot, and Messam for the back up (who had a purple patch of form when Kaino was out for a bit). But in spite of that he had a good AB career. and won two RWC's.
Squire was injured then had his mental health issues which meant he couldn't really nail down the spot.
For Vito he was 28 when he left and had 30 odd tests under his belt. He was ready kick on after his apprenticeship and they should have nailed him down
Regarding Squire, speculation, but could he have been managed better so that his mental health issues didn't spiral out of control?
The way Hansen managed Akira Ioane publicly caused Ioane to have his own brief mental health challenges and his weight spiraled. So I suspect that along with the way he treated Luatua that Squire was not getting the support he needed - a management failure. There needs to be systems and support in place for players to cope with injuries etc.
Fifita was better with the ball in hand than any of them but for some reason was shunted into lock for the Canes. Probably so Brad Shields could rack up more games before going to play for England.
Publicly saying he didn’t like playing lock did him absolutely no favours either.
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@brodean said in All Blacks 2025:
For Vito he was 28 when he left and had 30 odd tests under his belt. He was ready kick on after his apprenticeship and they should have nailed him down
Yeah I was so annoyed at the time, he was in his prime and we let him go. He was playing superior rugby to Read at the time and we kept the wrong guy with Read on his way down.
Didn't he win the European Player of the Year award in 2019?
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@MN5 said in All Blacks 2025:
@brodean said in All Blacks 2025:
@Nepia said in All Blacks 2025:
@brodean said in All Blacks 2025:
@canefan said in All Blacks 2025:
So post 2015 we have had a succession of coaches that don't appear to be able to get the best out of a bunch of pretty good players. Is that a failure to relate, is it fault on the part of the players, or more likely a bunch of factors that made these guys leave?
Its a coaching/management failure. Every one of these guys could have been world class just by giving them test matches, experience and managing them better.
Victor Vito
Steve Luatua
Liam Squire
Vaea Fifita
Akira IoaneI do't think being given lack of chances applied to them all. Luatua, Fifita, and Akira yep, they could have had more. But:
Vito got lots of chances, he was just up against Kaino for the main spot, and Messam for the back up (who had a purple patch of form when Kaino was out for a bit). But in spite of that he had a good AB career. and won two RWC's.
Squire was injured then had his mental health issues which meant he couldn't really nail down the spot.
For Vito he was 28 when he left and had 30 odd tests under his belt. He was ready kick on after his apprenticeship and they should have nailed him down
Regarding Squire, speculation, but could he have been managed better so that his mental health issues didn't spiral out of control?
The way Hansen managed Akira Ioane publicly caused Ioane to have his own brief mental health challenges and his weight spiraled. So I suspect that along with the way he treated Luatua that Squire was not getting the support he needed - a management failure. There needs to be systems and support in place for players to cope with injuries etc.
Fifita was better with the ball in hand than any of them but for some reason was shunted into lock for the Canes. Probably so Brad Shields could rack up more games before going to play for England.
Publicly saying he didn’t like playing lock did him absolutely no favours either.
Yeah that was Plumtree's fault wasn't it. I'm not sure why saying publicly that you don't want to play lock is so bad.
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@Bovidae said in All Blacks 2025:
Vito went to France for the money. He had won a SR title and been part of two RWC-winning teams so probably thought it was time to cash in.
And it was big money from what is known. And all glory to him.
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@Canes4life said in All Blacks 2025:
@brodean said in All Blacks 2025:
For Vito he was 28 when he left and had 30 odd tests under his belt. He was ready kick on after his apprenticeship and they should have nailed him down
Yeah I was so annoyed at the time, he was in his prime and we let him go. He was playing superior rugby to Read at the time and we kept the wrong guy with Read on his way down.
Didn't he win the European Player of the Year award in 2019?
Read was close to our best forward in 2015. The slide came after 2017.
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@ACT-Crusader said in All Blacks 2025:
@Canes4life said in All Blacks 2025:
@brodean said in All Blacks 2025:
For Vito he was 28 when he left and had 30 odd tests under his belt. He was ready kick on after his apprenticeship and they should have nailed him down
Yeah I was so annoyed at the time, he was in his prime and we let him go. He was playing superior rugby to Read at the time and we kept the wrong guy with Read on his way down.
Didn't he win the European Player of the Year award in 2019?
Read was close to our best forward in 2015. The slide came after 2017.
Hmmm, for some reason I felt he was in decline in 2015. Not saying I don't believe you, my recollection of him was just different.
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no way in 2015 would you have looked at Read not being there, he was a huge point of difference in our pack.
carrying him to 2019 was the mistake.
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@mariner4life said in All Blacks 2025:
no way in 2015 would you have looked at Read not being there, he was a huge point of difference in our pack.
carrying him to 2019 was the mistake.
Easy to say in hindsight. Hansen was never going to drop his captain and I'm not sure that a new coach in 2017 would have done so either
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don't get me wrong, it's a mistake i would have made as well. But he was definitely cooked.
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@African-Monkey said in All Blacks 2025:
@ACT-Crusader said in All Blacks 2025:
@Canes4life said in All Blacks 2025:
@brodean said in All Blacks 2025:
For Vito he was 28 when he left and had 30 odd tests under his belt. He was ready kick on after his apprenticeship and they should have nailed him down
Yeah I was so annoyed at the time, he was in his prime and we let him go. He was playing superior rugby to Read at the time and we kept the wrong guy with Read on his way down.
Didn't he win the European Player of the Year award in 2019?
Read was close to our best forward in 2015. The slide came after 2017.
Hmmm, for some reason I felt he was in decline in 2015. Not saying I don't believe you, my recollection of him was just different.
There is truth to what you are saying. His play became inconsistent around this time and it was in part down to the issues he was having as a result of concussions he suffered in 2014.
For some reason a restart always sticks in my head of the Tonga pool match in 2015 which he fails to catch and which the 2012/13 version would have gathered with ease. He was back to his best by the end of the tournament but was definitely not at his best in 2014 and parts of 2015.
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@mariner4life said in All Blacks 2025:
no way in 2015 would you have looked at Read not being there, he was a huge point of difference in our pack.
carrying him to 2019 was the mistake.
At least the current selectors have learnt their lessons and there are no players past their use by date in the squad.
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@MN5 said in All Blacks 2025:
@mariner4life said in All Blacks 2025:
no way in 2015 would you have looked at Read not being there, he was a huge point of difference in our pack.
carrying him to 2019 was the mistake.
At least the current selectors have learnt their lessons and there are no players past their use by date in the squad.
Thats funnier than your memes
