New All Black Coach
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@Nepia said in New All Black Coach:
I think @Dan54 might have been around in the 70s when the ABs were losing matches to Baabaas teams on an internal tour. That would have been tough to take.
Apologies Dan if you're not that old.
This year has felt worse for me personally than 98 for the way we lost games, and are playing. I'm as disillusioned with AB rugby in a way I haven't felt since the Mitchell era. And rightly or wrongly I'm more disillusioned than the Fozzie era because we were sold a lemon this time round when we supposed to be getting the messiah.
I think things are much worse.
1998 sucked, but there were also a lot of close losses and we never looked like we gave up. That definitely happened against the Boks this year and to a lesser extent against England.
I'm not optimistic at all, but tbh, I wasn't that optimistic anyway. -
@Nepia said in New All Black Coach:
I think @Dan54 might have been around in the 70s when the ABs were losing matches to Baabaas teams on an internal tour. That would have been tough to take.
Apologies Dan if you're not that old.
This year has felt worse for me personally than 98 for the way we lost games, and are playing. I'm as disillusioned with AB rugby in a way I haven't felt since the Mitchell era. And rightly or wrongly I'm more disillusioned than the Fozzie era because we were sold a lemon this time round when we supposed to be getting the messiah.
The 70's were really, really bad - at one stage we lost nearly 70% of Test matches over 2 successive years - but I've never seen an AB team so lacking in fight as this year's model.
Ironically, the bloke touted as Coach Jesus of his day but who made things much worse, Bob Duff, was also from Canterbury.
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@nostrildamus said in New All Black Coach:
It's sounding very difficult to become a great AB coach.
Coach an important team that doesn't challenge the ABs.
Make them better but not better than the ABs
Choose your team before the interview
Ace the interview
Improve the ABs so your past experience isn't held against you.
Given even Scotland can currently compete with the ABs, this sounds like an increasingly difficult test...Actually I don't think it's as difficult as that:
- Be a very, very good rugby coach who will actually coach the ABs
- Be able to communicate clearly to the players and the public
- Have an ability to inspire loyalty in the team and coaching setup
- Don't believe your own social media hype
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@gt12
1998 was an off year, it can happen.
But it looked like a quick fix.
I still had us favourites for the 99 RWC.What is happening now feels a lot different.
Like a systematic issue that is not being rectified, and if not remedied, will get a lot worse.
I dont have us as favourites for the 27 RWC. -
@mohikamo said in New All Black Coach:
@gt12
1998 was an off year, it can happen.
But it looked like a quick fix.
I still had us favourites for the 99 RWC.What is happening now feels a lot different.
Like a systematic issue that is not being rectified, and if not remedied, will get a lot worse.
I dont have us as favourites for the 27 RWC.If we win the WC in 2027, maybe Razor is a fucking genius or maybe we get a SA 2007 moment and ride it through. I personally think we may be looking at a QF exit, and conceivably not even getting that far with the 6 pools and Australia floating around in band 2.
Right now, we have the chickens coming home to roast from a rot that has set in at NZRU. It's a show, not a professional organization.
If I were honest, I think it feels like how I would describe much of NZ though, but that's a much longer post and would be well off topic. Suffice to say that the optics of the process look more important that the result. In this case, we have the decision on the coach. As it has turned out, for two (four) cycles, the NZRU has known who they wanted to coach the ABs, but they make a show of staging a 'contest.'
It was pretty clear in 2019 that the job would be Foster's, and it was crystal fucking clear that it would be Razor's in 2022 (ridiculous to even write that, given that we still had a WC to try to win). This sort of dress-up as professional and 'fair' is one of the blights of the NZRU.
I personally look at some of the posts here about Kirk being able to fix it with the same trepidation as I had when Razor was announced and everyone was announcing him as the saviour. I certainly hope that Kirk can make enough change to bring the organisation to a professional level of competency, but the same things being said about him as the man to fix things were said about Razor over the last few years.
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@gt12 said in New All Black Coach:
It was pretty clear in 2019 that the job would be Foster's, and it was crystal fucking clear that it would be Razor's in 2022
And crystal clear to me that a new direction was needed both times, not more of the same.
The thing with Kirk is; that he has the potential to make a difference now.
No one else in the current NZR hierarchy has that ability.
NZR has become a big, dumb, arrogant institution, full of itself.
The new CEO selection is critical.And we should start thinking about who the next head of NZR elite/HP/pro rugby should be. Someone with OE is a must.
Next season will sort it, one way or another. The national team schedule is mega. Hopefully Razor can make some changes in his own game, or the AB aura really will start to fade.
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@Victor-Meldrew said in New All Black Coach:
The 70's were really, really bad - at one stage we lost nearly 70% of Test matches over 2 successive years - but I've never seen an AB team so lacking in fight as this year's model.
Definitely a step down from the 60's. The 60's were mega.
But not "really, really" bad.
A bit of a similar situation to right now in someways.
Bad coaching decisions included.The majority of games were played away.
Two series were in SA, and we know how the saffas were always going arrange them. Both series were well fought even-so.The bad losses came at home.
I'd say the 3rd test in 71;
the England game in 73 (really, really bad, probably one of the ABs worst ever losses); and
the 78 loss to the Aussies at Eden Park (the Aussies hadn't beaten us for a very long time, and played out of their skins).Away
Home
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This post is deleted!
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@gt12 said in New All Black Coach:
I personally look at some of the posts here about Kirk being able to fix it with the same trepidation as I had when Razor was announced and everyone was announcing him as the saviour. I certainly hope that Kirk can make enough change to bring the organisation to a professional level of competency, but the same things being said about him as the man to fix things were said about Razor over the last few years.
That's a very fair point, but from what I seen/heard, Kirk is very aware of the issues and understands the need to fix the underlying processes rather than just a short-term fix. He's also an astute businessman who can probably see things from outside the NZR box
A lot is going to depend on who the new CEO is, of course, but at least we now have someone who's prepared to face problems rather than hide them.
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@gt12 said in New All Black Coach:
If I were honest, I think it feels like how I would describe much of NZ though, but that's a much longer post and would be well off topic.
Would love for you to elaborate on this - I have felt similar, but I am so far away from NZ, and have been away for so long, that I just don't know if my impression accords with reality.
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I personally look at some of the posts here about Kirk being able to fix it with the same trepidation as I had when Razor was announced and everyone was announcing him as the saviour. I certainly hope that Kirk can make enough change to bring the organisation to a professional level of competency, but the same things being said about him as the man to fix things were said about Razor over the last few years.
Difference with Kirk is he has a proven track record of being a hard arsed and very astute businessman. He was CEO of Fairfax Media in Aussie and worked at McKinsey, and anyone who’s worked with McKinsey knows that most of their graduates are usually ruthless little shits.
Kirk is probably one of the better options NZ rugby has. He also has the social credit of winning a World Cup.
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@Victor-Meldrew said in New All Black Coach:
Actually I don't think it's as difficult as that:
- Be a very, very good rugby coach who will actually coach the ABs
- Be able to communicate clearly to the players and the public
- Have an ability to inspire loyalty in the team and coaching setup
- Don't believe your own social media hype
But David Rennie may meet those criteria! (As that was my point)...
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@Victor-Meldrew said in New All Black Coach:
@gt12 said in New All Black Coach:
I personally look at some of the posts here about Kirk being able to fix it with the same trepidation as I had when Razor was announced and everyone was announcing him as the saviour. I certainly hope that Kirk can make enough change to bring the organisation to a professional level of competency, but the same things being said about him as the man to fix things were said about Razor over the last few years.
That's a very fair point, but from what I seen/heard, Kirk is very aware of the issues and understands the need to fix the underlying processes rather than just a short-term fix. He's also an astute businessman who can probably see things from outside the NZR box
A lot is going to depend on who the new CEO is, of course, but at least we now have someone who's prepared to face problems rather than hide them.
I hope for institutional change. But that takes time to implement. While that is happening, we need serious changes to the current coaching group if we are to have any chance in two years, and even more immediate is not getting flogged even worse next season
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@Nepia said in New All Black Coach:
I think @Dan54 might have been around in the 70s when the ABs were losing matches to Baabaas teams on an internal tour. That would have been tough to take.
Apologies Dan if you're not that old.
This year has felt worse for me personally than 98 for the way we lost games, and are playing. I'm as disillusioned with AB rugby in a way I haven't felt since the Mitchell era. And rightly or wrongly I'm more disillusioned than the Fozzie era because we were sold a lemon this time round when we supposed to be getting the messiah.
No insult mate, you bang on. I been following the game since the 60s as I born in 1954, and I have recalled a few times people saying it's all over. As I say I don't disagree we in a flat patch and am pissed at what we seem to be getting, I just perhaps call it a flat patch as dark period (which is also right) just sounds like the end to me!
Hell my Old man always used to say he saw some shit times too, and learnt to wait. He was around when we lost 4-0 to The Boks, lost to Rhodesia for first time and then also lost to Australia for first time ever at Athletic Park. -
@Dan54 said in New All Black Coach:
@Nepia said in New All Black Coach:
I think @Dan54 might have been around in the 70s when the ABs were losing matches to Baabaas teams on an internal tour. That would have been tough to take.
Apologies Dan if you're not that old.
This year has felt worse for me personally than 98 for the way we lost games, and are playing. I'm as disillusioned with AB rugby in a way I haven't felt since the Mitchell era. And rightly or wrongly I'm more disillusioned than the Fozzie era because we were sold a lemon this time round when we supposed to be getting the messiah.
No insult mate, you bang on. I been following the game since the 60s as I born in 1954, and I have recalled a few times people saying it's all over. As I say I don't disagree we in a flat patch and am pissed at what we seem to be getting, I just perhaps call it a flat patch as dark period (which is also right) just sounds like the end to me!
Hell my Old man always used to say he saw some shit times too, and learnt to wait. He was around when we lost 4-0 to The Boks, lost to Rhodesia for first time and then also lost to Australia for first time ever at Athletic Park.From about 2008 to 2017 we have been ridiculously spoiled. That makes the comedown seem even worse
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Make no bones fellas as I said I pissed , and never a fan of Razor getting job, mainly because I think super is so different to test rugby, as you don't have same selection conundrums etc as you tend to work with a certain pool of players. I always remember best coach I worked with (I managed team) here in NZ who after winning 3 club championships got job as Provincial coach, same problems and packed in after a year.
When NZR appointed Razor, although I didn't agree, just as a matter of principle I will support him as I do every AB coach and AB team, so don't take my comments as always being completely happy. -
@canefan said in New All Black Coach:
@Victor-Meldrew said in New All Black Coach:
@gt12 said in New All Black Coach:
I personally look at some of the posts here about Kirk being able to fix it with the same trepidation as I had when Razor was announced and everyone was announcing him as the saviour. I certainly hope that Kirk can make enough change to bring the organisation to a professional level of competency, but the same things being said about him as the man to fix things were said about Razor over the last few years.
That's a very fair point, but from what I seen/heard, Kirk is very aware of the issues and understands the need to fix the underlying processes rather than just a short-term fix. He's also an astute businessman who can probably see things from outside the NZR box
A lot is going to depend on who the new CEO is, of course, but at least we now have someone who's prepared to face problems rather than hide them.
I hope for institutional change. But that takes time to implement.
For sure. Problems much deeper than the current coaching setup. At least these are now being aired
While that is happening, we need serious changes to the current coaching group if we are to have any chance in two years, and even more immediate is not getting flogged even worse next season
Tricky situation to handle. If Robertson stays (unlikely to be sacked) and if even 10% of the rumours are true around friction in camp and fall-out with other coaches, then it's going to take a radical overhaul of the coaching setup with some direct day-day control from NZR
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@game_film said in New All Black Coach:
Be interesting to see how Razor would go coaching the ABs when the Scott Hansen era ends.
Yeah will be interesting because he does come across as a guy who likes having his own men that he trusts by his side as opposed to having guys chosen for him. He seems like a man that wants full control.
