New All Black Coach

canefan

@canefan said in New All Black Coach:

@kidcalder said in New All Black Coach:

I don't give a shite which other nation a bloke has coached if he is qualified and best candidate he gets the gig.
Dave Rennie hell yeah - I see him as a guy to build the legacy back
Vern Cotter potentially as his forwards coach
Joe Schmitt in a Wayne Smith type role ( or as Razor sees himself without taking the head coach cap).
JJ could also take one of those roles... the biggest thing is they jell and work together which seems to be lacking in the current set up

We are in a hole right now, this is a dark period in our ABs history, whatever it takes to rebuild our tarnished legacy

I don't get the dark period, it's just a period where we haven't get a hell of a lot of WC players etc, it's happened before and will happen again. I actually thought we lasted quite well after professionalism came in to stay as high as we are.
In saying that I keen on a coach who has some overseas experience.

What's not to get? I know you are a glass half full guy Dan, but don't let the eternal optimism blind you from the fact we aren't very good right now, from adminstration to coaching and down

kidcalder

If we showed signs and direction that the leadership group are making progress to thisdark period i would back them.. at the moment it looks like the darks aren't over...infact the dark days are here to stay.
We will lose players as they lose faith.

canefan

Got pumped by some of our biggest rivals and just held on for a couple of wins
We seem to lack an onfield identity and way to play
We have failed to dominate the opposition in any games this year
There seems to be lack of clarity in terms of communication between the coaches and the players. Also if rumours are to be believed players that we need in our team, such as Dalton, are now refusing to play for the group
Stubbornness in selection. Players like Barrett are constantly played. We have built no depth and failed to experiment with any other 10s in 2 years
We don't seem to be learning from our mistakes, for example our frailties when dealing with high balls
We have an outgoing CEO who got us into bed with Silverlake, and most pundits now agree that the NZR have put commercialism over performance.
That feels pretty bleak to me!

Dan54

@canefan said in New All Black Coach:

@Dan54 said in New All Black Coach:

@canefan said in New All Black Coach:

@kidcalder said in New All Black Coach:

I don't give a shite which other nation a bloke has coached if he is qualified and best candidate he gets the gig.
Dave Rennie hell yeah - I see him as a guy to build the legacy back
Vern Cotter potentially as his forwards coach
Joe Schmitt in a Wayne Smith type role ( or as Razor sees himself without taking the head coach cap).
JJ could also take one of those roles... the biggest thing is they jell and work together which seems to be lacking in the current set up

We are in a hole right now, this is a dark period in our ABs history, whatever it takes to rebuild our tarnished legacy

I don't get the dark period, it's just a period where we haven't get a hell of a lot of WC players etc, it's happened before and will happen again. I actually thought we lasted quite well after professionalism came in to stay as high as we are.
In saying that I keen on a coach who has some overseas experience.

What's not to get? I know you are a glass half full guy Dan, but don't let the eternal optimism blind you from the fact we aren't very good right now, from adminstration to coaching and down

Mate, perhaps I didn't put it right. I agree we on a low right now, just think I have seen a few over the years I have followed the game. Make no mistake, I a bit pissed at how things are looking etc , perhaps just seem to of recalled a few other times I felt similar.

canefan

@Dan54 said in New All Black Coach:

@canefan said in New All Black Coach:

@Dan54 said in New All Black Coach:

@canefan said in New All Black Coach:

@kidcalder said in New All Black Coach:

I don't give a shite which other nation a bloke has coached if he is qualified and best candidate he gets the gig.
Dave Rennie hell yeah - I see him as a guy to build the legacy back
Vern Cotter potentially as his forwards coach
Joe Schmitt in a Wayne Smith type role ( or as Razor sees himself without taking the head coach cap).
JJ could also take one of those roles... the biggest thing is they jell and work together which seems to be lacking in the current set up

We are in a hole right now, this is a dark period in our ABs history, whatever it takes to rebuild our tarnished legacy

I don't get the dark period, it's just a period where we haven't get a hell of a lot of WC players etc, it's happened before and will happen again. I actually thought we lasted quite well after professionalism came in to stay as high as we are.
In saying that I keen on a coach who has some overseas experience.

What's not to get? I know you are a glass half full guy Dan, but don't let the eternal optimism blind you from the fact we aren't very good right now, from adminstration to coaching and down

Mate, perhaps I didn't put it right. I agree we on a low right now, just think I have seen a few over the years I have followed the game. Make no mistake, I a bit pissed at how things are looking etc , perhaps just seem to of recalled a few other times I felt similar.

Our day will come again. We're too good to be held down. But at the moment, after the golden period, then the decline, we are in a trough. Not the first time I can remember, but it never feels good. Hopefully there isn't far to go before we hit rock bottom

Dan54

@canefan Yep mate as I said I getting on a bit and seem to recall a few.

ShaquilleOatmeal

@Dan54 said in New All Black Coach:

@canefan Yep mate as I said I getting on a bit and seem to recall a few.

Which specific years do you think were as bad or worse that this year and last? The one that I’ve been comparing things to for the last couple of years is 1998.

But that 1998 team was full of fantastic players, while this current team has a couple, a few has-beens and a few who could be great if they realise their potential.

And the losses in 1998 were close. Three within one scoring play. Jeff Wilson scored a try in one match that would’ve won the game had there been a TMO at the time. The teams they lost to weren’t shabby either. That was Australia at their all time peak. This year’s team gets thrashed when they lose and scrapes by in games they should put away easily.

I think things are worse now.

Bones

@W32 said in New All Black Coach:

@Bones said in New All Black Coach:

@gt12 said in New All Black Coach:

@Bones said in New All Black Coach:

@gt12 said in New All Black Coach:

@Nepia said in New All Black Coach:

@gt12 said in New All Black Coach:

@Nepia said in New All Black Coach:

@gt12 said in New All Black Coach:

I'll expand, which likely won't give greater clarity.

Absolute no-nos:
SA, England, Australia

Ireland probably now goes to that group above, but when he went to Australia, I think they would have been in the group below for me. Argentina are still in the group below, but based on recent results maybe might be going up

I still don't like it:
France, Ireland, Argentina

Go for it:
Scotland, Wales, Japan, Fiji

My criteria is - do they have the quality to win the WC, Bled, or Rugby Championship? If so, no.

It just opens up more holes, the current Oz team has little to no chance of winning the Bledisloe and that's a two horse race, and I'd give Argentina more chance of winning the RC.

The simple fact is, if Rennie wasn't treated so despicably by NZR, he likely wouldn't have taken up the Oz offer at the time he did. You should be forever grateful he turned your franchise from also rans to contenders.

Who have you decided to switch to now?

For as much as I care about franchise rugby I still support the Chiefs, I was just emphasising it was your franchise he brought success to ....

That's the source. He's a fucking great coach, supposedly an excellent person, and I would have selected him as our HC or as an assistant, right up until he went to coach Australia.

After that, fuck him.

Surely you take into account proximity? Plus I would put Aus close to Scotland in your dream world - if we lose to them it says more about us. AB rugby is stronger when Aus rugby is stronger.

#don’tjudgemyirrationality

Yeah I'm probably not going to get on my high horse about irrational dislike.

Why break with tradition?!

There he is...

Nepia

I think @Dan54 might have been around in the 70s when the ABs were losing matches to Baabaas teams on an internal tour. That would have been tough to take.

Apologies Dan if you're not that old.

This year has felt worse for me personally than 98 for the way we lost games, and are playing. I'm as disillusioned with AB rugby in a way I haven't felt since the Mitchell era. And rightly or wrongly I'm more disillusioned than the Fozzie era because we were sold a lemon this time round when we supposed to be getting the messiah.

gt12

@Nepia said in New All Black Coach:

I think @Dan54 might have been around in the 70s when the ABs were losing matches to Baabaas teams on an internal tour. That would have been tough to take.

Apologies Dan if you're not that old.

This year has felt worse for me personally than 98 for the way we lost games, and are playing. I'm as disillusioned with AB rugby in a way I haven't felt since the Mitchell era. And rightly or wrongly I'm more disillusioned than the Fozzie era because we were sold a lemon this time round when we supposed to be getting the messiah.

I think things are much worse.
1998 sucked, but there were also a lot of close losses and we never looked like we gave up. That definitely happened against the Boks this year and to a lesser extent against England.
I'm not optimistic at all, but tbh, I wasn't that optimistic anyway.

Victor Meldrew

@Nepia said in New All Black Coach:

I think @Dan54 might have been around in the 70s when the ABs were losing matches to Baabaas teams on an internal tour. That would have been tough to take.

Apologies Dan if you're not that old.

This year has felt worse for me personally than 98 for the way we lost games, and are playing. I'm as disillusioned with AB rugby in a way I haven't felt since the Mitchell era. And rightly or wrongly I'm more disillusioned than the Fozzie era because we were sold a lemon this time round when we supposed to be getting the messiah.

The 70's were really, really bad - at one stage we lost nearly 70% of Test matches over 2 successive years - but I've never seen an AB team so lacking in fight as this year's model.

Ironically, the bloke touted as Coach Jesus of his day but who made things much worse, Bob Duff, was also from Canterbury.

Victor Meldrew

@nostrildamus said in New All Black Coach:

It's sounding very difficult to become a great AB coach.
Coach an important team that doesn't challenge the ABs.
Make them better but not better than the ABs
Choose your team before the interview
Ace the interview
Improve the ABs so your past experience isn't held against you.
Given even Scotland can currently compete with the ABs, this sounds like an increasingly difficult test...

Actually I don't think it's as difficult as that:

Be a very, very good rugby coach who will actually coach the ABs
Be able to communicate clearly to the players and the public
Have an ability to inspire loyalty in the team and coaching setup
Don't believe your own social media hype

mohikamo

@gt12
1998 was an off year, it can happen.
But it looked like a quick fix.
I still had us favourites for the 99 RWC.

What is happening now feels a lot different.
Like a systematic issue that is not being rectified, and if not remedied, will get a lot worse.
I dont have us as favourites for the 27 RWC.

gt12

@mohikamo said in New All Black Coach:

@gt12
1998 was an off year, it can happen.
But it looked like a quick fix.
I still had us favourites for the 99 RWC.

What is happening now feels a lot different.
Like a systematic issue that is not being rectified, and if not remedied, will get a lot worse.
I dont have us as favourites for the 27 RWC.

If we win the WC in 2027, maybe Razor is a fucking genius or maybe we get a SA 2007 moment and ride it through. I personally think we may be looking at a QF exit, and conceivably not even getting that far with the 6 pools and Australia floating around in band 2.

Right now, we have the chickens coming home to roast from a rot that has set in at NZRU. It's a show, not a professional organization.

If I were honest, I think it feels like how I would describe much of NZ though, but that's a much longer post and would be well off topic. Suffice to say that the optics of the process look more important that the result. In this case, we have the decision on the coach. As it has turned out, for two (four) cycles, the NZRU has known who they wanted to coach the ABs, but they make a show of staging a 'contest.'

It was pretty clear in 2019 that the job would be Foster's, and it was crystal fucking clear that it would be Razor's in 2022 (ridiculous to even write that, given that we still had a WC to try to win). This sort of dress-up as professional and 'fair' is one of the blights of the NZRU.

I personally look at some of the posts here about Kirk being able to fix it with the same trepidation as I had when Razor was announced and everyone was announcing him as the saviour. I certainly hope that Kirk can make enough change to bring the organisation to a professional level of competency, but the same things being said about him as the man to fix things were said about Razor over the last few years.

mohikamo

@gt12 said in New All Black Coach:

It was pretty clear in 2019 that the job would be Foster's, and it was crystal fucking clear that it would be Razor's in 2022

And crystal clear to me that a new direction was needed both times, not more of the same.

The thing with Kirk is; that he has the potential to make a difference now.
No one else in the current NZR hierarchy has that ability.
NZR has become a big, dumb, arrogant institution, full of itself.
The new CEO selection is critical.

And we should start thinking about who the next head of NZR elite/HP/pro rugby should be. Someone with OE is a must.

Next season will sort it, one way or another. The national team schedule is mega. Hopefully Razor can make some changes in his own game, or the AB aura really will start to fade.

mohikamo

@Victor-Meldrew said in New All Black Coach:

The 70's were really, really bad - at one stage we lost nearly 70% of Test matches over 2 successive years - but I've never seen an AB team so lacking in fight as this year's model.

Definitely a step down from the 60's. The 60's were mega.
But not "really, really" bad.
A bit of a similar situation to right now in someways.
Bad coaching decisions included.

The majority of games were played away.
Two series were in SA, and we know how the saffas were always going arrange them. Both series were well fought even-so.

The bad losses came at home.
I'd say the 3rd test in 71;
the England game in 73 (really, really bad, probably one of the ABs worst ever losses); and
the 78 loss to the Aussies at Eden Park (the Aussies hadn't beaten us for a very long time, and played out of their skins).

Away

Home

S3L3CTOR

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S3L3CTOR

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Victor Meldrew

@gt12 said in New All Black Coach:

I personally look at some of the posts here about Kirk being able to fix it with the same trepidation as I had when Razor was announced and everyone was announcing him as the saviour. I certainly hope that Kirk can make enough change to bring the organisation to a professional level of competency, but the same things being said about him as the man to fix things were said about Razor over the last few years.

That's a very fair point, but from what I seen/heard, Kirk is very aware of the issues and understands the need to fix the underlying processes rather than just a short-term fix. He's also an astute businessman who can probably see things from outside the NZR box

A lot is going to depend on who the new CEO is, of course, but at least we now have someone who's prepared to face problems rather than hide them.

junior

@gt12 said in New All Black Coach:

If I were honest, I think it feels like how I would describe much of NZ though, but that's a much longer post and would be well off topic.

Would love for you to elaborate on this - I have felt similar, but I am so far away from NZ, and have been away for so long, that I just don't know if my impression accords with reality.

The Silver Fern

New All Black Coach