All Blacks 2025
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@jimmyb said in All Blacks 2025:
There is clearly no self belief in the team; and half of that is to do with the fact that none of them outside of the crusaders players and Beuden (back in the glory days when he’d come off the bench) have ever won anything.
If you mean nationally or internationally then you are wrong.
What has changed is that we don’t have a leadership team and the on field presence that gives players the confidence to rise above domestic failures and perform on the international stage.
This is a reach. It's the ABs. There is a legacy to work for.
I’m sure we call work hard at our jobs and are/have leaders that know how to steer the team/company through a tough situation. Do any of those players inspire a single ounce of grit or determination?
Yes, Taylor; probably Ardie; Roigard too I suspect. Against England Jordie showed that as well.
Now that we have lost Smith, Retallick, Whitelock, Cane, and Coles, we lost the last of a generation of an era that knew how to lead and think on the pitch. I don’t think we should be under any illusions that that core was what pulled us through the final RWC2023.
5 people (4 forwards) is a reasonably-sized core.
@nostrildamus said in All Blacks 2025:
@jimmyb said in All Blacks 2025:
There is clearly no self belief in the team; and half of that is to do with the fact that none of them outside of the crusaders players and Beuden (back in the glory days when he’d come off the bench) have ever won anything.
If you mean nationally or internationally then you are wrong.
What has changed is that we don’t have a leadership team and the on field presence that gives players the confidence to rise above domestic failures and perform on the international stage.
This is a reach. It's the ABs. There is a legacy to work for.
I’m sure we call work hard at our jobs and are/have leaders that know how to steer the team/company through a tough situation. Do any of those players inspire a single ounce of grit or determination?
Yes, Taylor; probably Ardie; Roigard too I suspect. Against England Jordie showed that as well.
Now that we have lost Smith, Retallick, Whitelock, Cane, and Coles, we lost the last of a generation of an era that knew how to lead and think on the pitch. I don’t think we should be under any illusions that that core was what pulled us through the final RWC2023.
5 people (4 forwards) is a reasonably-sized core.
Not sure how to format the replies like you did but:
Either and I’m right. The blues players sneaking in a title when the crusaders had an off season doesn’t count. The low hanging fruit of a Bledisloe Cup and Rugby Championship while South Africa was out? Not sure that counts.
Well the players certainly respected that legacy last weekend didn’t they! Don’t take the piss, they’re responsible for repeatedly failing to life up to and respect that legacy.
Taylor somewhat, Ardie absolutely not. Roigard is still junior so no, Jordie has had plenty of time and still doesn’t seem to inspire.
Don’t clutch at straws. The players are soft and have a loosing mindset.
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Interesting comments from Jake White on the current AB's issues.
Pretty much puts a lot of it down to NZR not supporting the AB coaching set-up, interfering with choice of assistants and having a blind-spot regarding the loss of coaching talent like Tony Brown.
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@nostrildamus said in All Blacks 2025:
@jimmyb said in All Blacks 2025:
There is clearly no self belief in the team; and half of that is to do with the fact that none of them outside of the crusaders players and Beuden (back in the glory days when he’d come off the bench) have ever won anything.
If you mean nationally or internationally then you are wrong.
What has changed is that we don’t have a leadership team and the on field presence that gives players the confidence to rise above domestic failures and perform on the international stage.
This is a reach. It's the ABs. There is a legacy to work for.
I’m sure we call work hard at our jobs and are/have leaders that know how to steer the team/company through a tough situation. Do any of those players inspire a single ounce of grit or determination?
Yes, Taylor; probably Ardie; Roigard too I suspect. Against England Jordie showed that as well.
Now that we have lost Smith, Retallick, Whitelock, Cane, and Coles, we lost the last of a generation of an era that knew how to lead and think on the pitch. I don’t think we should be under any illusions that that core was what pulled us through the final RWC2023.
5 people (4 forwards) is a reasonably-sized core.
Not sure how to format the replies like you did but:
Either and I’m right. The blues players sneaking in a title when the crusaders had an off season doesn’t count. The low hanging fruit of a Bledisloe Cup and Rugby Championship while South Africa was out? Not sure that counts.
Well the players certainly respected that legacy last weekend didn’t they! Don’t take the piss, they’re responsible for repeatedly failing to life up to and respect that legacy.
Taylor somewhat, Ardie absolutely not. Roigard is still junior so no, Jordie has had plenty of time and still doesn’t seem to inspire.
Don’t clutch at straws. The players are soft and have a loosing mindset.
@jimmyb said in All Blacks 2025:
@nostrildamus said in All Blacks 2025:
@jimmyb said in All Blacks 2025:
There is clearly no self belief in the team; and half of that is to do with the fact that none of them outside of the crusaders players and Beuden (back in the glory days when he’d come off the bench) have ever won anything.
If you mean nationally or internationally then you are wrong.
What has changed is that we don’t have a leadership team and the on field presence that gives players the confidence to rise above domestic failures and perform on the international stage.
This is a reach. It's the ABs. There is a legacy to work for.
I’m sure we call work hard at our jobs and are/have leaders that know how to steer the team/company through a tough situation. Do any of those players inspire a single ounce of grit or determination?
Yes, Taylor; probably Ardie; Roigard too I suspect. Against England Jordie showed that as well.
Now that we have lost Smith, Retallick, Whitelock, Cane, and Coles, we lost the last of a generation of an era that knew how to lead and think on the pitch. I don’t think we should be under any illusions that that core was what pulled us through the final RWC2023.
5 people (4 forwards) is a reasonably-sized core.
Not sure how to format the replies like you did but:
Either and I’m right. The blues players sneaking in a title when the crusaders had an off season doesn’t count. The low hanging fruit of a Bledisloe Cup and Rugby Championship while South Africa was out? Not sure that counts.
Well the players certainly respected that legacy last weekend didn’t they! Don’t take the piss, they’re responsible for repeatedly failing to life up to and respect that legacy.
Taylor somewhat, Ardie absolutely not. Roigard is still junior so no, Jordie has had plenty of time and still doesn’t seem to inspire.
Don’t clutch at straws. The players are soft and have a loosing mindset.
You're over egging the pudding a bit. By my count 10 of the 2011 RWC final starting XV had never won Super rugby when that final was played. And for two of the players who had won that was eight years earlier.
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@bayimports said in All Blacks 2025:
@nostrildamus said in All Blacks 2025:
And what the hell does 'beyond noble' mean?
well nobility should not have to tackle it would be beneath them, and I thought Tamaiti went beyond those requirements
Is that why Ardie was walking and not bothering to tackle in the last 20min it was beneath him, that sounds about right.
@Chris said in All Blacks 2025:
@bayimports said in All Blacks 2025:
@nostrildamus said in All Blacks 2025:
And what the hell does 'beyond noble' mean?
well nobility should not have to tackle it would be beneath them, and I thought Tamaiti went beyond those requirements
Is that why Ardie was walking and not bothering to tackle in the last 20min it was beneath him, that sounds about right.
I saw one involvement from him in the last 10mins. That's an "achievement" for someone wearing 7 on his back against the old foe at home.
The sooner this skiving fluffybunny fucks off, the better off we'll be.
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@jimmyb said in All Blacks 2025:
@nostrildamus said in All Blacks 2025:
@jimmyb said in All Blacks 2025:
There is clearly no self belief in the team; and half of that is to do with the fact that none of them outside of the crusaders players and Beuden (back in the glory days when he’d come off the bench) have ever won anything.
If you mean nationally or internationally then you are wrong.
What has changed is that we don’t have a leadership team and the on field presence that gives players the confidence to rise above domestic failures and perform on the international stage.
This is a reach. It's the ABs. There is a legacy to work for.
I’m sure we call work hard at our jobs and are/have leaders that know how to steer the team/company through a tough situation. Do any of those players inspire a single ounce of grit or determination?
Yes, Taylor; probably Ardie; Roigard too I suspect. Against England Jordie showed that as well.
Now that we have lost Smith, Retallick, Whitelock, Cane, and Coles, we lost the last of a generation of an era that knew how to lead and think on the pitch. I don’t think we should be under any illusions that that core was what pulled us through the final RWC2023.
5 people (4 forwards) is a reasonably-sized core.
Not sure how to format the replies like you did but:
Either and I’m right. The blues players sneaking in a title when the crusaders had an off season doesn’t count. The low hanging fruit of a Bledisloe Cup and Rugby Championship while South Africa was out? Not sure that counts.
Well the players certainly respected that legacy last weekend didn’t they! Don’t take the piss, they’re responsible for repeatedly failing to life up to and respect that legacy.
Taylor somewhat, Ardie absolutely not. Roigard is still junior so no, Jordie has had plenty of time and still doesn’t seem to inspire.
Don’t clutch at straws. The players are soft and have a loosing mindset.
You're over egging the pudding a bit. By my count 10 of the 2011 RWC final starting XV had never won Super rugby when that final was played. And for two of the players who had won that was eight years earlier.
@Nepia said in All Blacks 2025:
@jimmyb said in All Blacks 2025:
@nostrildamus said in All Blacks 2025:
@jimmyb said in All Blacks 2025:
There is clearly no self belief in the team; and half of that is to do with the fact that none of them outside of the crusaders players and Beuden (back in the glory days when he’d come off the bench) have ever won anything.
If you mean nationally or internationally then you are wrong.
What has changed is that we don’t have a leadership team and the on field presence that gives players the confidence to rise above domestic failures and perform on the international stage.
This is a reach. It's the ABs. There is a legacy to work for.
I’m sure we call work hard at our jobs and are/have leaders that know how to steer the team/company through a tough situation. Do any of those players inspire a single ounce of grit or determination?
Yes, Taylor; probably Ardie; Roigard too I suspect. Against England Jordie showed that as well.
Now that we have lost Smith, Retallick, Whitelock, Cane, and Coles, we lost the last of a generation of an era that knew how to lead and think on the pitch. I don’t think we should be under any illusions that that core was what pulled us through the final RWC2023.
5 people (4 forwards) is a reasonably-sized core.
Not sure how to format the replies like you did but:
Either and I’m right. The blues players sneaking in a title when the crusaders had an off season doesn’t count. The low hanging fruit of a Bledisloe Cup and Rugby Championship while South Africa was out? Not sure that counts.
Well the players certainly respected that legacy last weekend didn’t they! Don’t take the piss, they’re responsible for repeatedly failing to life up to and respect that legacy.
Taylor somewhat, Ardie absolutely not. Roigard is still junior so no, Jordie has had plenty of time and still doesn’t seem to inspire.
Don’t clutch at straws. The players are soft and have a loosing mindset.
You're over egging the pudding a bit. By my count 10 of the 2011 RWC final starting XV had never won Super rugby when that final was played. And for two of the players who had won that was eight years earlier.
My point isn’t quite that, it’s that the environment from that period has players who knew how to win and could lead. It gave players direction. Now, the team doesn’t have that so it’s really the blind leading the blind
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@Chris said in All Blacks 2025:
@bayimports said in All Blacks 2025:
@nostrildamus said in All Blacks 2025:
And what the hell does 'beyond noble' mean?
well nobility should not have to tackle it would be beneath them, and I thought Tamaiti went beyond those requirements
Is that why Ardie was walking and not bothering to tackle in the last 20min it was beneath him, that sounds about right.
think Tamaiti was accredited with tied most missed tackles in that match..
Im sure Ardie would have had more misses accredited if he could keep up
@bayimports said in All Blacks 2025:
@Chris said in All Blacks 2025:
@bayimports said in All Blacks 2025:
@nostrildamus said in All Blacks 2025:
And what the hell does 'beyond noble' mean?
well nobility should not have to tackle it would be beneath them, and I thought Tamaiti went beyond those requirements
Is that why Ardie was walking and not bothering to tackle in the last 20min it was beneath him, that sounds about right.
think Tamaiti was accredited with tied most missed tackles in that match..
Im sure Ardie would have had more misses accredited if he could keep up
At least Tamaiti was trying to get to tackles. Most of the time he was chasing backs or loosies, so no surprises lots of ‘missed’ tackles.
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@nostrildamus said in All Blacks 2025:
@jimmyb said in All Blacks 2025:
There is clearly no self belief in the team; and half of that is to do with the fact that none of them outside of the crusaders players and Beuden (back in the glory days when he’d come off the bench) have ever won anything.
If you mean nationally or internationally then you are wrong.
What has changed is that we don’t have a leadership team and the on field presence that gives players the confidence to rise above domestic failures and perform on the international stage.
This is a reach. It's the ABs. There is a legacy to work for.
I’m sure we call work hard at our jobs and are/have leaders that know how to steer the team/company through a tough situation. Do any of those players inspire a single ounce of grit or determination?
Yes, Taylor; probably Ardie; Roigard too I suspect. Against England Jordie showed that as well.
Now that we have lost Smith, Retallick, Whitelock, Cane, and Coles, we lost the last of a generation of an era that knew how to lead and think on the pitch. I don’t think we should be under any illusions that that core was what pulled us through the final RWC2023.
5 people (4 forwards) is a reasonably-sized core.
Not sure how to format the replies like you did but:
Either and I’m right. The blues players sneaking in a title when the crusaders had an off season doesn’t count. The low hanging fruit of a Bledisloe Cup and Rugby Championship while South Africa was out? Not sure that counts.
Well the players certainly respected that legacy last weekend didn’t they! Don’t take the piss, they’re responsible for repeatedly failing to life up to and respect that legacy.
Taylor somewhat, Ardie absolutely not. Roigard is still junior so no, Jordie has had plenty of time and still doesn’t seem to inspire.
Don’t clutch at straws. The players are soft and have a loosing mindset.
@jimmyb said in All Blacks 2025:
@nostrildamus said in All Blacks 2025:
@jimmyb said in All Blacks 2025:
There is clearly no self belief in the team; and half of that is to do with the fact that none of them outside of the crusaders players and Beuden (back in the glory days when he’d come off the bench) have ever won anything.
If you mean nationally or internationally then you are wrong.
What has changed is that we don’t have a leadership team and the on field presence that gives players the confidence to rise above domestic failures and perform on the international stage.
This is a reach. It's the ABs. There is a legacy to work for.
I’m sure we call work hard at our jobs and are/have leaders that know how to steer the team/company through a tough situation. Do any of those players inspire a single ounce of grit or determination?
Yes, Taylor; probably Ardie; Roigard too I suspect. Against England Jordie showed that as well.
Now that we have lost Smith, Retallick, Whitelock, Cane, and Coles, we lost the last of a generation of an era that knew how to lead and think on the pitch. I don’t think we should be under any illusions that that core was what pulled us through the final RWC2023.
5 people (4 forwards) is a reasonably-sized core.
Not sure how to format the replies like you did but:
Either and I’m right. The blues players sneaking in a title when the crusaders had an off season doesn’t count. The low hanging fruit of a Bledisloe Cup and Rugby Championship while South Africa was out? Not sure that counts.
Might as well disregard the Crusaders’ titles and the winning mentality of those players too. The other teams in the competition were all useless and didn’t know how to win.
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Or maybe the Blues won when they had a 10 running the show?
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Each year only one team can win the title , so there’s always going to be a lot of players in our pool that aren’t winners at that level .
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Each year only one team can win the title , so there’s always going to be a lot of players in our pool that aren’t winners at that level .
@kiwiinmelb said in All Blacks 2025:
Each year only one team can win the title , so there’s always going to be a lot of players in our pool that aren’t winners at that level .
Don't feed the troll.
Winning only counts if you're from the Crusaders. It's not a good mindset. Great players are great players, no matter where they come from. AA Ron Smith was insanely competitive, despite playing for an (ahem) small market team. Darren Lockyer (one of the finest league fullbacks in my opinion) was spotted by Wayne Bennett in a team getting humiliated. Mental strength and toughness is either in people or it's not.
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@kiwiinmelb said in All Blacks 2025:
Each year only one team can win the title , so there’s always going to be a lot of players in our pool that aren’t winners at that level .
Don't feed the troll.
Winning only counts if you're from the Crusaders. It's not a good mindset. Great players are great players, no matter where they come from. AA Ron Smith was insanely competitive, despite playing for an (ahem) small market team. Darren Lockyer (one of the finest league fullbacks in my opinion) was spotted by Wayne Bennett in a team getting humiliated. Mental strength and toughness is either in people or it's not.
@nzzp said in All Blacks 2025:
@kiwiinmelb said in All Blacks 2025:
Each year only one team can win the title , so there’s always going to be a lot of players in our pool that aren’t winners at that level .
Don't feed the troll.
Winning only counts if you're from the Crusaders. It's not a good mindset. Great players are great players, no matter where they come from. AA Ron Smith was insanely competitive, despite playing for an (ahem) small market team. Darren Lockyer (one of the finest league fullbacks in my opinion) was spotted by Wayne Bennett in a team getting humiliated. Mental strength and toughness is either in people or it's not.
Maybe we should get a winning coach from that level
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@nzzp said in All Blacks 2025:
@kiwiinmelb said in All Blacks 2025:
Each year only one team can win the title , so there’s always going to be a lot of players in our pool that aren’t winners at that level .
Don't feed the troll.
Winning only counts if you're from the Crusaders. It's not a good mindset. Great players are great players, no matter where they come from. AA Ron Smith was insanely competitive, despite playing for an (ahem) small market team. Darren Lockyer (one of the finest league fullbacks in my opinion) was spotted by Wayne Bennett in a team getting humiliated. Mental strength and toughness is either in people or it's not.
Maybe we should get a winning coach from that level
@kiwiinmelb said in All Blacks 2025:
@nzzp said in All Blacks 2025:
@kiwiinmelb said in All Blacks 2025:
Each year only one team can win the title , so there’s always going to be a lot of players in our pool that aren’t winners at that level .
Don't feed the troll.
Winning only counts if you're from the Crusaders. It's not a good mindset. Great players are great players, no matter where they come from. AA Ron Smith was insanely competitive, despite playing for an (ahem) small market team. Darren Lockyer (one of the finest league fullbacks in my opinion) was spotted by Wayne Bennett in a team getting humiliated. Mental strength and toughness is either in people or it's not.
Maybe we should get a winning coach from that level
It's fascinating eh. Foster's late run, Razor's struggles and Penney's Super victory this year have reframed some of what - on the face of it - was a remarkable achievement. How much is the machine, how much is the players, how much is the coach?
Still reckon Sir Graham was right: Razor would be a better coach with experience offshore.
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@kiwiinmelb said in All Blacks 2025:
Each year only one team can win the title , so there’s always going to be a lot of players in our pool that aren’t winners at that level .
Don't feed the troll.
Winning only counts if you're from the Crusaders. It's not a good mindset. Great players are great players, no matter where they come from. AA Ron Smith was insanely competitive, despite playing for an (ahem) small market team. Darren Lockyer (one of the finest league fullbacks in my opinion) was spotted by Wayne Bennett in a team getting humiliated. Mental strength and toughness is either in people or it's not.
@nzzp said in All Blacks 2025:
@kiwiinmelb said in All Blacks 2025:
Each year only one team can win the title , so there’s always going to be a lot of players in our pool that aren’t winners at that level .
Don't feed the troll.
Winning only counts if you're from the Crusaders. It's not a good mindset. Great players are great players, no matter where they come from. AA Ron Smith was insanely competitive, despite playing for an (ahem) small market team. Darren Lockyer (one of the finest league fullbacks in my opinion) was spotted by Wayne Bennett in a team getting humiliated. Mental strength and toughness is either in people or it's not.
Carlos Spencer got discovered while playing for Horowhenua who were getting a hiding from Auckland if I remember rightly, he then played for them next season.
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@nzzp said in All Blacks 2025:
@kiwiinmelb said in All Blacks 2025:
Each year only one team can win the title , so there’s always going to be a lot of players in our pool that aren’t winners at that level .
Don't feed the troll.
Winning only counts if you're from the Crusaders. It's not a good mindset. Great players are great players, no matter where they come from. AA Ron Smith was insanely competitive, despite playing for an (ahem) small market team. Darren Lockyer (one of the finest league fullbacks in my opinion) was spotted by Wayne Bennett in a team getting humiliated. Mental strength and toughness is either in people or it's not.
Carlos Spencer got discovered while playing for Horowhenua who were getting a hiding from Auckland if I remember rightly, he then played for them next season.
@MN5 said in All Blacks 2025:
@nzzp said in All Blacks 2025:
@kiwiinmelb said in All Blacks 2025:
Each year only one team can win the title , so there’s always going to be a lot of players in our pool that aren’t winners at that level .
Don't feed the troll.
Winning only counts if you're from the Crusaders. It's not a good mindset. Great players are great players, no matter where they come from. AA Ron Smith was insanely competitive, despite playing for an (ahem) small market team. Darren Lockyer (one of the finest league fullbacks in my opinion) was spotted by Wayne Bennett in a team getting humiliated. Mental strength and toughness is either in people or it's not.
Carlos Spencer got discovered while playing for Horowhenua who were getting a hiding from Auckland if I remember rightly, he then played for them next season.
He was , Auckland chased him after the Shield match in Levin, also tried for another young player from that match who wasn't really interested from what I recall.
Mind you that was and still is the case, good talent spotters know what is good regardless of results. -
@pakman summed up by this sentence; the consistent theme of Robertson’s increasingly average tenure is that the substitutes are incapable of getting into the game, let alone positively impacting it - everything else is filler.
Now that a couple of journos have had the balls to suggest the bleedingly obvious, it seems they're now turning on the very bloke they cheered for like giggling schoolgirls.
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@kiwiinmelb said in All Blacks 2025:
@nzzp said in All Blacks 2025:
@kiwiinmelb said in All Blacks 2025:
Each year only one team can win the title , so there’s always going to be a lot of players in our pool that aren’t winners at that level .
Don't feed the troll.
Winning only counts if you're from the Crusaders. It's not a good mindset. Great players are great players, no matter where they come from. AA Ron Smith was insanely competitive, despite playing for an (ahem) small market team. Darren Lockyer (one of the finest league fullbacks in my opinion) was spotted by Wayne Bennett in a team getting humiliated. Mental strength and toughness is either in people or it's not.
Maybe we should get a winning coach from that level
It's fascinating eh. Foster's late run, Razor's struggles and Penney's Super victory this year have reframed some of what - on the face of it - was a remarkable achievement. How much is the machine, how much is the players, how much is the coach?
Still reckon Sir Graham was right: Razor would be a better coach with experience offshore.
@nzzp said in All Blacks 2025:
Still reckon Sir Graham was right: Razor would be a better coach with experience offshore.
That didn't fit with the NZR Board's plans though.
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I still believe Robertson is a very good head coach - his issue may be that some of his assistant aren't quite up to scratch at this level.
You don't have the success he has had and it be a total fluke.
And I still say, there is every possibility that these players are of the level of the 3rd or 4th best team in the world, hence why we are getting results as such.
I don't think these players are bad, but outside of Will Jordan, I don't think any of these players at their current age and stages crack the 2015 side.
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I still believe Robertson is a very good head coach - his issue may be that some of his assistant aren't quite up to scratch at this level.
You don't have the success he has had and it be a total fluke.
And I still say, there is every possibility that these players are of the level of the 3rd or 4th best team in the world, hence why we are getting results as such.
I don't think these players are bad, but outside of Will Jordan, I don't think any of these players at their current age and stages crack the 2015 side.
@frugby said in All Blacks 2025:
I still believe Robertson is a very good head coach - his issue may be that some of his assistant aren't quite up to scratch at this level.
You don't have the success he has had and it be a total fluke.
Maybe he's just not good enough at Test level? A bit like George Bridge - he was successful for the Crusaders too.
I agree with Henry and Hansen - NZR should have insisted he was tested at International level before being given the job. But we are where we are.
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I still believe Robertson is a very good head coach - his issue may be that some of his assistant aren't quite up to scratch at this level.
You don't have the success he has had and it be a total fluke.
And I still say, there is every possibility that these players are of the level of the 3rd or 4th best team in the world, hence why we are getting results as such.
I don't think these players are bad, but outside of Will Jordan, I don't think any of these players at their current age and stages crack the 2015 side.
