All Blacks 2025
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I don’t think there’s any question that Robertson was the right appointment. NZR handled the process poorly, however. Ideally, Robertson should have been surrounded by other top-level coaches, not just his mates. And while he deserved the job, that doesn’t guarantee he’s up to it. He still has time to turn things around, but at this stage it looks far from promising.
@ShaquilleOatmeal said in All Blacks 2025:
I don’t think there’s any question that Robertson was the right appointment. NZR handled the process poorly, however. Ideally, Robertson should have been surrounded by other top-level coaches, not just his mates. And while he deserved the job, that doesn’t guarantee he’s up to it. He still has time to turn things around, but at this stage it looks far from promising.
This seemed to be the problem for Fozzie as well, who got stuck with dud assistants. The problem is made even worse under Razor given he seems to be very much a vibes guy rather than a technically good coach.
The process for appointing both Fozzie and Razor was an absolute shit show that left us with poor coaching groups - I think the biggest problems with the ABs right now is that NZR can't come up with a process for appointing a new coaching group that maximises the talent we have. Surely they'd get all the best coaches in a room together and tell them to make it work given this is our national side? And that a bit of disagreement is actually a good thing in a professional environment? We get limited say in the colleagues we work with in our jobs, we just make it work. Perhaps NZR err on the side of just picking who they think is best, short of two blokes wanting to kill each other, instead of making candidates try and lock in their "team" ahead of time.
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@Victor-Meldrew said in All Blacks 2025:
@frugby said in All Blacks 2025:
I still believe Robertson is a very good head coach - his issue may be that some of his assistant aren't quite up to scratch at this level.
You don't have the success he has had and it be a total fluke.
Maybe he's just not good enough at Test level? A bit like George Bridge - he was successful for the Crusaders too.
I agree with Henry and Hansen - NZR should have insisted he was tested at International level before being given the job. But we are where we are.
I am a long way from being a Robertson supporter, that should be pretty clear.
But it's not comparable to George Bridge, who was a good winger benefitting from playing in the best team. If anyone it's more Reuben Thorne - the guy leading the best team to the best results - but even then it's quite different in that player performances are highly visible to the public, whereas coaching is pretty much completely opaque other than final results.
By international experience, what do you mean? Coaching a national side, or coaching a club/provincial side in another country? If a national side, clearly you think Brazil doesn't count - where is the line? And do you mean as a head coach, or as an assistant coach? Robertson also played in both Japan and France, so he has some experience in other environments.
Any which way, I find it dogmatic. There are definitely aspects of test rugby in terms of prep time and tournament play vs prepping for a long season that are different, but these things are never black and white. Nobody has ever done something until they have.If he's not good enough and our results are shit, I'm all for sacking him - I can't understand some of his selections, his tactics, half the sentences that come out of his mouth are nonsense or contradictory - but I don't want to see his failures being put down to some arbitrary missing requirement for international experience, whatever that means, which can then be used to rule out our next good candidate.
@reprobate
Then what do you put it down to? An honest question. Lack of international club/country just seems to be one of a few suggestions being floated. -
on the other side of the draw, there just aren't enough challenging head and assistant coaching jobs in NZ that pay well enough to stop the coaching drain: SA, Ireland, England, Japan, Australia ... they can't all easily come back and apply once they've gone and most of them have improved our rivals (arguably).
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There would have been huge value in Razor coaching up North to learn their systems etc, and put his coaching talents to the test outside of the cozy Crusaderland. Whether that's an international team or club, either would have benefited him a lot I think.
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Black pill time. I’m finding it hard to muster any enthusiasm for this weekend or anything beyond really. Wellington knocked the (little) faith I had completely out of me. Not the result, the performance. No confidence in the coaching team and the core veterans. I have doubts whether the management even know what the problems are.
We win comfortably in the weekend showing we can pull out the odd big performance but can’t sustain anything. Though we go out and lose the next week. We then head north and lose twice. We show just enough that none of the required structural changes are made. The media will tell us how great the players are, and a few bounces and refereeing decisions just didn’t go our way. The coaching team is locked in, the veterans which needed to go years ago hold on for the next WC and be guaranteed selection irrespective of performance.
Repeat for next year. Then it’s too late to change anything for the WC anyway. Depending on the draw, exit in the semis. Media and players say the coach just needs a bit more time and his plan is coming together.
Repeat the cycle.
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Any rumours on the 23 named tomorrow..?
Usually @george33 has some spill lol… -
Reckon it is eminently possible that Cam Roigard makes a world of difference. His threat around the ruck should give the other backs more space.
I thought our backs looked pretty slick in those first two tests v France - in fact we were slick in general.
Ratima has been shit, and Christie is shit, which certainly hasn’t helped matters.
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Black pill time. I’m finding it hard to muster any enthusiasm for this weekend or anything beyond really. Wellington knocked the (little) faith I had completely out of me. Not the result, the performance. No confidence in the coaching team and the core veterans. I have doubts whether the management even know what the problems are.
We win comfortably in the weekend showing we can pull out the odd big performance but can’t sustain anything. Though we go out and lose the next week. We then head north and lose twice. We show just enough that none of the required structural changes are made. The media will tell us how great the players are, and a few bounces and refereeing decisions just didn’t go our way. The coaching team is locked in, the veterans which needed to go years ago hold on for the next WC and be guaranteed selection irrespective of performance.
Repeat for next year. Then it’s too late to change anything for the WC anyway. Depending on the draw, exit in the semis. Media and players say the coach just needs a bit more time and his plan is coming together.
Repeat the cycle.
@JA said in All Blacks 2025:
Black pill time. I’m finding it hard to muster any enthusiasm for this weekend or anything beyond really. Wellington knocked the (little) faith I had completely out of me. Not the result, the performance. No confidence in the coaching team and the core veterans. I have doubts whether the management even know what the problems are.
We win comfortably in the weekend showing we can pull out the odd big performance but can’t sustain anything. Though we go out and lose the next week. We then head north and lose twice. We show just enough that none of the required structural changes are made. The media will tell us how great the players are, and a few bounces and refereeing decisions just didn’t go our way. The coaching team is locked in, the veterans which needed to go years ago hold on for the next WC and be guaranteed selection irrespective of performance.
Repeat for next year. Then it’s too late to change anything for the WC anyway. Depending on the draw, exit in the semis. Media and players say the coach just needs a bit more time and his plan is coming together.
Repeat the cycle.
I'd be showing the players the footage of them walking around on defence and generally not bothering, then asking them if they want to add to that footage in the future.
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@JA said in All Blacks 2025:
Black pill time. I’m finding it hard to muster any enthusiasm for this weekend or anything beyond really. Wellington knocked the (little) faith I had completely out of me. Not the result, the performance. No confidence in the coaching team and the core veterans. I have doubts whether the management even know what the problems are.
We win comfortably in the weekend showing we can pull out the odd big performance but can’t sustain anything. Though we go out and lose the next week. We then head north and lose twice. We show just enough that none of the required structural changes are made. The media will tell us how great the players are, and a few bounces and refereeing decisions just didn’t go our way. The coaching team is locked in, the veterans which needed to go years ago hold on for the next WC and be guaranteed selection irrespective of performance.
Repeat for next year. Then it’s too late to change anything for the WC anyway. Depending on the draw, exit in the semis. Media and players say the coach just needs a bit more time and his plan is coming together.
Repeat the cycle.
I'd be showing the players the footage of them walking around on defence and generally not bothering, then asking them if they want to add to that footage in the future.
@ShaquilleOatmeal said in All Blacks 2025:
@JA said in All Blacks 2025:
Black pill time. I’m finding it hard to muster any enthusiasm for this weekend or anything beyond really. Wellington knocked the (little) faith I had completely out of me. Not the result, the performance. No confidence in the coaching team and the core veterans. I have doubts whether the management even know what the problems are.
We win comfortably in the weekend showing we can pull out the odd big performance but can’t sustain anything. Though we go out and lose the next week. We then head north and lose twice. We show just enough that none of the required structural changes are made. The media will tell us how great the players are, and a few bounces and refereeing decisions just didn’t go our way. The coaching team is locked in, the veterans which needed to go years ago hold on for the next WC and be guaranteed selection irrespective of performance.
Repeat for next year. Then it’s too late to change anything for the WC anyway. Depending on the draw, exit in the semis. Media and players say the coach just needs a bit more time and his plan is coming together.
Repeat the cycle.
I'd be showing the players the footage of them walking around on defence and generally not bothering, then asking them if they want to add to that footage in the future.
I'D be showing the players who were walking the fucking door and don't come back.
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Any rumours on the 23 named tomorrow..?
Usually @george33 has some spill lol…@upthelanders Reiko to resume his spot.
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@upthelanders Reiko to resume his spot.
@george33 said in All Blacks 2025:
@upthelanders Reiko to resume his spot.
At centre or the wing? I could understand him coming back in at 13, but on the wing would just be bizarre.
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@george33 said in All Blacks 2025:
@upthelanders Reiko to resume his spot.
At centre or the wing? I could understand him coming back in at 13, but on the wing would just be bizarre.
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Good thinking Raz, shuffle the outside backs - that's almost always the problem when you get thrashed.
@reprobate said in All Blacks 2025:
Good thinking Raz, shuffle the outside backs - that's almost always the problem when you get thrashed.
coach under pressure classic
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@frugby said in All Blacks 2025:
@Chris At least Ioane can tackle. Proctor's defence has been sub-par.
Yeah but first he is not good enough for centre but he's a wing then he doesn't get selected.Now he is the best centre again
A complete mess confusion reigns. -
@frugby said in All Blacks 2025:
@Chris At least Ioane can tackle. Proctor's defence has been sub-par.
Yeah but first he is not good enough for centre but he's a wing then he doesn't get selected.Now he is the best centre again
A complete mess confusion reigns.@Chris said in All Blacks 2025:
@frugby said in All Blacks 2025:
@Chris At least Ioane can tackle. Proctor's defence has been sub-par.
Yeah but first he is not good enough for centre but he's a wing then he doesn't get selected.Now he is the best centre again
A complete mess confusion reigns.I think that was short-sighted. He clearly isn't a winger anymore. I think we all hoped Proctor would be an improvement, but he has failed to replicate the form he showed in Super Rugby having had a reasonable chance.
It has been far from smooth sailing inside him, but he hasn't shown an ounce of anything to suggest he is better than Rieko.
I think ideally you still want a better distributor at 13... would they be brave enough to consider Ennor for the end of year tour?
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@upthelanders Reiko to resume his spot.
@george33 gosh that’s the last thing I wanted to hear. Didn’t he concede like 6 turnovers or something for Auckland last weekend??
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@KiwiMurph said in All Blacks 2025:
I think with Razor it's just as much as lack of diverse coaching experience as being the problem.
He's coached Canterbury and the Crusaders.
His coaching network is small - and even some of those he has had a falling out with (Leon MacDonald).
Therefore you end up with a weak coaching staff.
Foster had a similar issue in his tenure but was luckily able to pivot to Ryan and Schmidt.
Based on the evidence I question how much goodwill Razor has in coaching circles.
I think the big difference is we all know the original coaching group assembled by Foster wasn't the one he wanted, it was the one he could get.
Apart from Leon walking out the door, is this the group Razor wanted? Because a bunch of them look as out of their depth as Foster's originals.
@antipodean said in All Blacks 2025:
@KiwiMurph said in All Blacks 2025:
I think with Razor it's just as much as lack of diverse coaching experience as being the problem.
He's coached Canterbury and the Crusaders.
His coaching network is small - and even some of those he has had a falling out with (Leon MacDonald).
Therefore you end up with a weak coaching staff.
Foster had a similar issue in his tenure but was luckily able to pivot to Ryan and Schmidt.
Based on the evidence I question how much goodwill Razor has in coaching circles.
I think the big difference is we all know the original coaching group assembled by Foster wasn't the one he wanted, it was the one he could get.
Apart from Leon walking out the door, is this the group Razor wanted? Because a bunch of them look as out of their depth as Foster's originals.
Foster was hamstrung by the ineptitude of the board wasn't he? IIRC he wanted Brown and Joseph, but by the time the board actually opened up applications they were gone? Razor has no such excuse. They gave him what he wanted in terms of coaches
