The Silver Fern

@ACT-Crusader said in All Blacks vs Wallabies Bledisloe I:

@reprobate said in All Blacks vs Wallabies Bledisloe I:

@frugby said in All Blacks vs Wallabies Bledisloe I:

I'm caught in two minds here. On the one hand, I do think that is more or less the best available 23. On the other hand, I think only dropping DMac and Kirifi from that shambles feels too generous. Granted there is a couple back from injury, but I think you could make a reasonable argument that Lomax, Sititi, B Barrett, J Barrett, Proctor, Williams & Newell also could have paid the price.

Would have been a strong statement to leave out a few more, but the pressure Razor is under probably means he can't take a long-term shot like that.

McKenzie is still in the 23, so that 6 tries to 1 drubbing is rightly all laid at the feet of the bench loosie.

We can also pin it on the halfbacks…..

True that, 12 cap Cam Roigard must already be significantly better than Carter and McCaw ever were if his absence results in a rout like that.

@frugby said in All Blacks vs Wallabies Bledisloe I:

I'm caught in two minds here. On the one hand, I do think that is more or less the best available 23. On the other hand, I think only dropping DMac and Kirifi from that shambles feels too generous. Granted there is a couple back from injury, but I think you could make a reasonable argument that Lomax, Sititi, B Barrett, J Barrett, Proctor, Williams & Newell also could have paid the price.

Would have been a strong statement to leave out a few more, but the pressure Razor is under probably means he can't take a long-term shot like that.

McKenzie is still in the 23, so that 6 tries to 1 drubbing is rightly all laid at the feet of the bench loosie.

@Landers92 said in All Blacks vs Wallabies Bledisloe I:

No leaks on social media as of yet. Perhaps those types of pages were spying on the fern

Well the nice thing about that is that whoever was doing it can read us telling them to go and fuck themselves.

@Jet said in All Blacks vs Wallabies Bledisloe I:

@reprobate said in All Blacks vs Wallabies Bledisloe I:

@Mr-Fish said in All Blacks vs Wallabies Bledisloe I:

@george33 said in All Blacks vs Wallabies Bledisloe I:

Jamie Wall has said Leicester has had his eligibility rushed thru so if correct he must be in 23 , my understanding was that he would only be made available if injury to our midfield and wings was severe.

They 'rushed through' Fainga'anuku's eligibility weeks ago when they first brought him into the squad. He's been eligible to play for the All Blacks ever since then.

The All Blacks eligibility laws have always been fluid and he was always going to be able to be brought into the squad if Razor pushed for it hard enough. Evidently he and NZR compromised.

It will be exactly the same when Mo'unga returns to NZ. NZR have said he's not eligible immediately upon his return. If need be, however, he will become eligible.

I really dislike this. Bending the rules for a guy who has never even really been a first choice AB, when we don't have any midfield injuries, plenty of wingers available, and he hasn't even played a Super game since returning.

Encouraging guys to go overseas and come back for the WC, or letting them fast-track back in because a coach likes them - it cheapens everything, shits on those who have stayed, and is inarguably to our long-term detriment.

I'd be hard against it for a Carter or McCaw. For these haven't-beens, it can fuck all the way off.

Completely agree but also feel conflicted because those that stayed here dont deserve their place either. Its not like he is knocking Conrad Smith out of the squad.

Rieko, ALB, Proctor.......all crap.

They're not that crap though, not really.
Rieko was good in the last WC, Proctor has had a great Super season, and ALB is a long-term AB - he may be past his best, but he's not actually a terrible footy player.
My point being that none of them are as bad as they are being made to look in our backline - which suggest the problem is not whoever plays at centre - and that means parachuting in Leicester solves fuck-all.

@Mr-Fish said in All Blacks vs Wallabies Bledisloe I:

@george33 said in All Blacks vs Wallabies Bledisloe I:

Jamie Wall has said Leicester has had his eligibility rushed thru so if correct he must be in 23 , my understanding was that he would only be made available if injury to our midfield and wings was severe.

They 'rushed through' Fainga'anuku's eligibility weeks ago when they first brought him into the squad. He's been eligible to play for the All Blacks ever since then.

The All Blacks eligibility laws have always been fluid and he was always going to be able to be brought into the squad if Razor pushed for it hard enough. Evidently he and NZR compromised.

It will be exactly the same when Mo'unga returns to NZ. NZR have said he's not eligible immediately upon his return. If need be, however, he will become eligible.

I really dislike this. Bending the rules for a guy who has never even really been a first choice AB, when we don't have any midfield injuries, plenty of wingers available, and he hasn't even played a Super game since returning.

Encouraging guys to go overseas and come back for the WC, or letting them fast-track back in because a coach likes them - it cheapens everything, shits on those who have stayed, and is inarguably to our long-term detriment.

I'd be hard against it for a Carter or McCaw. For these haven't-beens, it can fuck all the way off.

@pourfasse said in All Blacks vs Wallabies Bledisloe I:

No more BB at 10 please. Give Lowe some time. The year is almost done.

I probably would have classified my opinion as 'anyone but BB', but an aging 2nd-string Highlanders winger getting the call-up to slot in for the ABs at 10 is pushing it.

@Chris-B said in All Blacks vs Wallabies Bledisloe I:

@ACT-Crusader said in All Blacks vs Wallabies Bledisloe I:

Williams, Taylor, Newell, Barrett, Holland, Vaa’i, Savea, Parker

ST, EDG, Lomax, Tuipoluto, Sititi/Lakai

I don't think Parker is a great option at 8.

I'd probably pick Jacobson or Sititi to play 8 and put Parker on the bench if Vaa'i is playing 6.

I get the argument that Sititi and Ardie are a bit same-same, but they worked OK at 6/8 last year, so maybe they can be melded at 7/8.

Maybe they can, but I'd dispute that they worked well together last year. They both (particularly Sititi) did some good stuff individually, but our loosies as a unit were consistently 2nd best - so if you think those two were good together, that seems a lot of blame to heap on one other guy - who wasn't always the same guy either.
And they were well outplayed last week, with the other loosie being somebody who didn't play at all last year.
If Sititi were playing as well as last year individually, I think him plus Vaai plus either Dalton or Ethan would work, with Ardie on the bench. But he's not. Last year we had no size, this year we have no workers.

Good thinking Raz, shuffle the outside backs - that's almost always the problem when you get thrashed.

@Jet It's the same problem as Foster had in some ways - too loyal to the players to drop them. Rieko shouldn't be shuffled to the wing, if he's not your centre he should be dropped and asked to play a couple of games at wing at a lower level to show he still can.
BB should be gone. Best case I think we see him shuffled to fullback.
TJP and Cane as you say.
With Foster I'd speculate it was personal loyalty, because he knew them all so well. With Robertson, perhaps there's some sort of culture which he is trying to create, because he has actually ditched guys he knew in Blackadder and Havili, while retaining past-it but long-term ABs for swansong type shit. If so I think that's a terrible mistake, because it needs to be first and foremost and above everything else, performance-based.

Not sure if this has already been posted, but a couple of quotes from Holland in the Herald article by Superman:

Among the areas highlighted by the review, Holland said that how the side were using possession needed to be addressed.
“There’s a couple of things we’re working away at. I touched on our possession and what we’re doing with our ball. There’s times, especially in the South African game and it has happened earlier on, where we give the ball back to the opposition when we don’t need to,” the coach said.
“Whether it’s a kick too often or whether that’s losing the battle in the air, as we know, there are a couple of key things that we feel the pressure is released from the opposition and we feel like that’s where we can really go hard on things.”

Well, fuck me, come on down Sherlock Holmes. They are promising comments at least, but I'll believe it when I see it.

@nzzp said in All Blacks 2025:

@reprobate said in All Blacks 2025:

If he's not good enough and our results are shit, I'm all for sacking him - I can't understand some of his selections, his tactics, half the sentences that come out of his mouth are nonsense or contradictory - but I don't want to see his failures being put down to some arbitrary missing requirement for international experience, whatever that means, which can then be used to rule out our next good candidate.

Don't agree that it is an arbitrary requirement. The consistent narrative is that Test rugby is quite different to Super. Skillsets are different, the game is different, the prep is different, the squads are different. Hell, you're on the road continuously even in your own country.

The question is whether the coaching team has enough knowledge and experience to understand what is needed and respond. Same question as the players - and one of the reasons RMo struggled; Tests are faster, with bigger faster players and fewer mismatches, along with better defensive systems. Shining in Super is not an automatic tick for shining at Test level.

And head coaching is different than assistant coaching. And test rugby is only really a step up from Super if it is tier 1.
So we want all our future AB coach candidates to have first been head coach of a tier 1 country? Good luck with that, because it simply isn't possible - and even if it were, it would mean all our best coaches coaching our biggest rivals.

Of course shining in Super is not a guarantee of test success, but it is the best indicator we have. All you can do is combine it with your understanding of the ways in which test rugby is different e.g. Sevu Reece is a standout at Super, but his game is built around high workrate, small guy, not particularly quick, not a high ball specialist, a lot of non-traditional winger pick n goes etc - one can make the leap that his game may not transfer well.

There are also gigs like NZ under 20, which is international, tournament-based footy. Rennie was a standout there. Robertson had that job for a bit too didn't he?

@Victor-Meldrew said in All Blacks 2025:

@frugby said in All Blacks 2025:

I still believe Robertson is a very good head coach - his issue may be that some of his assistant aren't quite up to scratch at this level.

You don't have the success he has had and it be a total fluke.

Maybe he's just not good enough at Test level? A bit like George Bridge - he was successful for the Crusaders too.

I agree with Henry and Hansen - NZR should have insisted he was tested at International level before being given the job. But we are where we are.

I am a long way from being a Robertson supporter, that should be pretty clear.
But it's not comparable to George Bridge, who was a good winger benefitting from playing in the best team. If anyone it's more Reuben Thorne - the guy leading the best team to the best results - but even then it's quite different in that player performances are highly visible to the public, whereas coaching is pretty much completely opaque other than final results.
By international experience, what do you mean? Coaching a national side, or coaching a club/provincial side in another country? If a national side, clearly you think Brazil doesn't count - where is the line? And do you mean as a head coach, or as an assistant coach? Robertson also played in both Japan and France, so he has some experience in other environments.
Any which way, I find it dogmatic. There are definitely aspects of test rugby in terms of prep time and tournament play vs prepping for a long season that are different, but these things are never black and white. Nobody has ever done something until they have.

If he's not good enough and our results are shit, I'm all for sacking him - I can't understand some of his selections, his tactics, half the sentences that come out of his mouth are nonsense or contradictory - but I don't want to see his failures being put down to some arbitrary missing requirement for international experience, whatever that means, which can then be used to rule out our next good candidate.

@frugby said in All Blacks vs Wallabies Bledisloe I:

@antipodean said in All Blacks vs Wallabies Bledisloe I:

@frugby said in All Blacks vs Wallabies Bledisloe I:

Proctor hasn't done enough on attack to offset his weaker defence. Rieko the best defender, but his attack has been so underwhelming. ALB past it. Leaves Fainga'anuku or Tupaea. I'd go QT with Leicester on the bench.

Tupaea's defence against the Springboks in the wider channel was dreadful. There's no way he's an upgrade on Proctor. He's an option at 12.

And who seriously suggests Fainga'anuku? A bloke that couldn't cement a wing spot, leaves to become one of the worst defenders in Top14 is somehow now considered All Black level?

What’s the other option then? Ioane and Proctor both been underwhelming, and I just don’t see ALB as the solution.

Could JB shift to 13?

Solve the problem at 10. Changing the 13 changes nothing, and in a non functioning backline a 13 can't impress on attack. It's only marginally better than what Robertson will probably do, which is axe a winger and bring back Reece and/or Clarke - thus demonstrating that he can adjust his plans, make the hard calls and demand accountability. Or honesty something something cough bullshit.

@No-Quarter said in Should this week's test be the ushering-in of a new era for All Blacks?:

@nzzp said in Should this week's test be the ushering-in of a new era for All Blacks?:

@ACT-Crusader said in Should this week's test be the ushering-in of a new era for All Blacks?:

@reprobate last season was enough for me for DMac. He was at his erratic best, crabbing across field and putting pressure on our outsides. Plus he also had kicking issues. Yes Barrett has been poor this year but I think DMac is at best a 15 back up.

including the Ireland game?

Outside of DMac, who was nothing more than solid in that match, it's pretty damning that the best performance everyone talks about in the Razor era was against an error strewn Irish side that more lost the game than us winning it with the sheer number of basic mistakes they made. We really do rely on the opposition being below par for us to win at the moment, but if they are on form, look out, that's what happened in Wellington.

I agree, I don't think McKenzie was particularly great vs Ireland, but as you say he was solid, and solid is a step up from what we have at present (with far fewer opportunities given), and there are a lot of people on here talking about Plummer not getting a go, and maybe try Reihana etc - and at best those guys are solid.
McKenzie first half SA #1 last year was genuinely good. Admittedly Barrett has flashes too (France C 1st test) where he looks good, but it's against lesser opposition and we know it's just a flash, there will be no consistent improvement, because he's played a lot of tests. You just can't have a guy whose whole skillset is making the unlikely miracle play as your 10 and think that you're going to win consistently.

@ACT-Crusader said in Should this week's test be the ushering-in of a new era for All Blacks?:

@reprobate last season was enough for me for DMac. He was at his erratic best, crabbing across field and putting pressure on our outsides. Plus he also had kicking issues. Yes Barrett has been poor this year but I think DMac is at best a 15 back up.

Yeah, I disagree - but hey that opinion is fine - I've lost patience with players in short periods of time, I just don't see anyone else banging on the door.
It's the talking about them as if they've both had a mountain of opportunities that irks me, because it's demonstrably false - it's like 60 tests Beauden has started at 10. Before last year Damian had started 5.

@Rancid-Schnitzel said in Should this week's test be the ushering-in of a new era for All Blacks?:

@reprobate said in Should this week's test be the ushering-in of a new era for All Blacks?:

@ACT-Crusader said in Should this week's test be the ushering-in of a new era for All Blacks?:

@ARHS said in Should this week's test be the ushering-in of a new era for All Blacks?:

Where is all the Love for starting 10 stuff coming from? Do people want to see him suffer in a no win situation this early in his career?

What do you mean suffer?

He’s in the squad and has been selected as a 10/15. Plus we’ve had a gut full of BB and DMac running the cutter. No time like the present.

I really wish people would stop lumping McKenzie in with Barrett. Barrett has played every important minute at 10 this season, it's entirely his shit-show, and blaming a guy who has spent almost all his time on the bench or coming on at fullback when wingers get injured - and playing pretty well there - is just fucking weird.

C'mon DMac has had plenty of chances at 10 and has been repeatedly found wanting. Neither are the answer. The cupboard is bare. FFS Jordie would probably do a better job than either. At least he has a boot on him. I would take any poor man's version of Grant Fox at this point.

Barrett had played as many tests at 10 as McKenzie has now, in about 2016 I'd say.
McKenzie played his first test at 10 in 2018, his 2nd in 2021, his 3rd to 5th in 2023. Beauden's first 5 tests at 10 were in 20-fucking-14.
The chances McKenzie has had are, in fact, pretty much just half of last year - whereas Beauden has had a decade.

@mariner4life Exactly. If we're not going to fix the actual problem, we may as well pick Ioane as he is the best defender and riles a few fluffybunnies up.
It would be better if we actually fixed it though.

@ACT-Crusader said in Should this week's test be the ushering-in of a new era for All Blacks?:

@ARHS said in Should this week's test be the ushering-in of a new era for All Blacks?:

Where is all the Love for starting 10 stuff coming from? Do people want to see him suffer in a no win situation this early in his career?

What do you mean suffer?

He’s in the squad and has been selected as a 10/15. Plus we’ve had a gut full of BB and DMac running the cutter. No time like the present.

I really wish people would stop lumping McKenzie in with Barrett. Barrett has played every important minute at 10 this season, it's entirely his shit-show, and blaming a guy who has spent almost all his time on the bench or coming on at fullback when wingers get injured - and playing pretty well there - is just fucking weird.

I think you could pick a Reihana or Plummer in a well-established team with playmakers at 9 and 12 and give them a limited role to play and have it work. The current rabble not so much.