All Blacks 2025
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So the backline is gonna look like
9. Roigard
10. Barrett
11. Clarke
12. J. Barrett
13. Ioane
14. ??
15. ?? Jordan?🥱🥱
@upthelanders said in All Blacks 2025:
So the backline is gonna look like
9. Roigard
10. Barrett
11. Clarke
12. J. Barrett
13. Ioane
14. ??
15. ?? Jordan?🥱🥱
that 9 could be handy.
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@upthelanders said in All Blacks 2025:
So the backline is gonna look like
9. Roigard
10. Barrett
11. Clarke
12. J. Barrett
13. Ioane
14. ??
15. ?? Jordan?🥱🥱
that 9 could be handy.
@nostrildamus 10 to 13 is a bit of a snore fest.
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@antipodean said in All Blacks 2025:
@KiwiMurph said in All Blacks 2025:
I think with Razor it's just as much as lack of diverse coaching experience as being the problem.
He's coached Canterbury and the Crusaders.
His coaching network is small - and even some of those he has had a falling out with (Leon MacDonald).
Therefore you end up with a weak coaching staff.
Foster had a similar issue in his tenure but was luckily able to pivot to Ryan and Schmidt.
Based on the evidence I question how much goodwill Razor has in coaching circles.
I think the big difference is we all know the original coaching group assembled by Foster wasn't the one he wanted, it was the one he could get.
Apart from Leon walking out the door, is this the group Razor wanted? Because a bunch of them look as out of their depth as Foster's originals.
Foster was hamstrung by the ineptitude of the board wasn't he? IIRC he wanted Brown and Joseph, but by the time the board actually opened up applications they were gone? Razor has no such excuse. They gave him what he wanted in terms of coaches
@canefan said in All Blacks 2025:
@antipodean said in All Blacks 2025:
@KiwiMurph said in All Blacks 2025:
I think with Razor it's just as much as lack of diverse coaching experience as being the problem.
He's coached Canterbury and the Crusaders.
His coaching network is small - and even some of those he has had a falling out with (Leon MacDonald).
Therefore you end up with a weak coaching staff.
Foster had a similar issue in his tenure but was luckily able to pivot to Ryan and Schmidt.
Based on the evidence I question how much goodwill Razor has in coaching circles.
I think the big difference is we all know the original coaching group assembled by Foster wasn't the one he wanted, it was the one he could get.
Apart from Leon walking out the door, is this the group Razor wanted? Because a bunch of them look as out of their depth as Foster's originals.
Foster was hamstrung by the ineptitude of the board wasn't he? IIRC he wanted Brown and Joseph, but by the time the board actually opened up applications they were gone? Razor has no such excuse. They gave him what he wanted in terms of coaches
correct
its in his book -
@Chris said in All Blacks 2025:
@frugby said in All Blacks 2025:
@Chris said in All Blacks 2025:
@frugby said in All Blacks 2025:
@Chris At least Ioane can tackle. Proctor's defence has been sub-par.
Yeah but first he is not good enough for centre but he's a wing then he doesn't get selected.Now he is the best centre again
A complete mess confusion reigns.I think that was short-sighted. He clearly isn't a winger anymore. I think we all hoped Proctor would be an improvement, but he has failed to replicate the form he showed in Super Rugby having had a reasonable chance.
It has been far from smooth sailing inside him, but he hasn't shown an ounce of anything to suggest he is better than Rieko.
I think ideally you still want a better distributor at 13... would they be brave enough to consider Ennor for the end of year tour?
Maybe they would, Ennor is a good distributer,But it seems to me they are panicking and will stay with the as they see it, tried and true.
So BB who is a problem will never get moved from First Five.@canefan said in All Blacks 2025:
@Chris said in All Blacks 2025:
@frugby said in All Blacks 2025:
@Chris said in All Blacks 2025:
@frugby said in All Blacks 2025:
@Chris At least Ioane can tackle. Proctor's defence has been sub-par.
Yeah but first he is not good enough for centre but he's a wing then he doesn't get selected.Now he is the best centre again
A complete mess confusion reigns.I think that was short-sighted. He clearly isn't a winger anymore. I think we all hoped Proctor would be an improvement, but he has failed to replicate the form he showed in Super Rugby having had a reasonable chance.
It has been far from smooth sailing inside him, but he hasn't shown an ounce of anything to suggest he is better than Rieko.
I think ideally you still want a better distributor at 13... would they be brave enough to consider Ennor for the end of year tour?
Maybe they would, Ennor is a good distributer,But it seems to me they are panicking and will stay with the as they see it, tried and true.
So BB who is a problem will never get moved from First Five.This coming from a man who told us all Proctor was the greatest centre in the world and would fix all our troubles,Only to turn out he is sub standard at test level.
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Not really sure why you drop Leroy Carter in favour of Clarke when you had the option of picking Clarke for the Boks but chose not to.
It strikes me that Clarke would have been the more obvious selection for Wellington and Carter would perform well in the Bledisloe as he did in super rugby. As it is I think Carter did enough to deserve a second start.
The thinking process behind some of the selections is tough to figure out.
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@upthelanders understand he isn't available even no he's training.
Had so many people saying the same unless of a major injury in the squad.@george33 said in All Blacks 2025:
@upthelanders understand he isn't available even no he's training.
Had so many people saying the same unless of a major injury in the squad.Yet Razor comes out in an interview saying LF is available if you are correct what a clown show.
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So the backline is gonna look like
9. Roigard
10. Barrett
11. Clarke
12. J. Barrett
13. Ioane
14. ??
15. ?? Jordan?🥱🥱
@upthelanders said in All Blacks 2025:
So the backline is gonna look like
9. Roigard
10. Barrett
11. Clarke
12. J. Barrett
13. Ioane
14. ??
15. ?? Jordan?🥱🥱
Looks like Fosters backline lol although if I have a punt I reckon we will win at Eden Park the boys will find a way but then we will be found wanting in Perth
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@canefan said in All Blacks 2025:
@Chris said in All Blacks 2025:
@frugby said in All Blacks 2025:
@Chris said in All Blacks 2025:
@frugby said in All Blacks 2025:
@Chris At least Ioane can tackle. Proctor's defence has been sub-par.
Yeah but first he is not good enough for centre but he's a wing then he doesn't get selected.Now he is the best centre again
A complete mess confusion reigns.I think that was short-sighted. He clearly isn't a winger anymore. I think we all hoped Proctor would be an improvement, but he has failed to replicate the form he showed in Super Rugby having had a reasonable chance.
It has been far from smooth sailing inside him, but he hasn't shown an ounce of anything to suggest he is better than Rieko.
I think ideally you still want a better distributor at 13... would they be brave enough to consider Ennor for the end of year tour?
Maybe they would, Ennor is a good distributer,But it seems to me they are panicking and will stay with the as they see it, tried and true.
So BB who is a problem will never get moved from First Five.This coming from a man who told us all Proctor was the greatest centre in the world and would fix all our troubles,Only to turn out he is sub standard at test level.
@Chris said in All Blacks 2025:
@canefan said in All Blacks 2025:
@Chris said in All Blacks 2025:
@frugby said in All Blacks 2025:
@Chris said in All Blacks 2025:
@frugby said in All Blacks 2025:
@Chris At least Ioane can tackle. Proctor's defence has been sub-par.
Yeah but first he is not good enough for centre but he's a wing then he doesn't get selected.Now he is the best centre again
A complete mess confusion reigns.I think that was short-sighted. He clearly isn't a winger anymore. I think we all hoped Proctor would be an improvement, but he has failed to replicate the form he showed in Super Rugby having had a reasonable chance.
It has been far from smooth sailing inside him, but he hasn't shown an ounce of anything to suggest he is better than Rieko.
I think ideally you still want a better distributor at 13... would they be brave enough to consider Ennor for the end of year tour?
Maybe they would, Ennor is a good distributer,But it seems to me they are panicking and will stay with the as they see it, tried and true.
So BB who is a problem will never get moved from First Five.This coming from a man who told us all Proctor was the greatest centre in the world and would fix all our troubles,Only to turn out he is sub standard at test level.
I think you're muddling up the Canes fans.
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@Chris said in All Blacks 2025:
@canefan said in All Blacks 2025:
@Chris said in All Blacks 2025:
@frugby said in All Blacks 2025:
@Chris said in All Blacks 2025:
@frugby said in All Blacks 2025:
@Chris At least Ioane can tackle. Proctor's defence has been sub-par.
Yeah but first he is not good enough for centre but he's a wing then he doesn't get selected.Now he is the best centre again
A complete mess confusion reigns.I think that was short-sighted. He clearly isn't a winger anymore. I think we all hoped Proctor would be an improvement, but he has failed to replicate the form he showed in Super Rugby having had a reasonable chance.
It has been far from smooth sailing inside him, but he hasn't shown an ounce of anything to suggest he is better than Rieko.
I think ideally you still want a better distributor at 13... would they be brave enough to consider Ennor for the end of year tour?
Maybe they would, Ennor is a good distributer,But it seems to me they are panicking and will stay with the as they see it, tried and true.
So BB who is a problem will never get moved from First Five.This coming from a man who told us all Proctor was the greatest centre in the world and would fix all our troubles,Only to turn out he is sub standard at test level.
I think you're muddling up the Canes fans.
@Nepia they all look the same
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@Chris said in All Blacks 2025:
@canefan said in All Blacks 2025:
@Chris said in All Blacks 2025:
@frugby said in All Blacks 2025:
@Chris said in All Blacks 2025:
@frugby said in All Blacks 2025:
@Chris At least Ioane can tackle. Proctor's defence has been sub-par.
Yeah but first he is not good enough for centre but he's a wing then he doesn't get selected.Now he is the best centre again
A complete mess confusion reigns.I think that was short-sighted. He clearly isn't a winger anymore. I think we all hoped Proctor would be an improvement, but he has failed to replicate the form he showed in Super Rugby having had a reasonable chance.
It has been far from smooth sailing inside him, but he hasn't shown an ounce of anything to suggest he is better than Rieko.
I think ideally you still want a better distributor at 13... would they be brave enough to consider Ennor for the end of year tour?
Maybe they would, Ennor is a good distributer,But it seems to me they are panicking and will stay with the as they see it, tried and true.
So BB who is a problem will never get moved from First Five.This coming from a man who told us all Proctor was the greatest centre in the world and would fix all our troubles,Only to turn out he is sub standard at test level.
I think you're muddling up the Canes fans.
@Nepia said in All Blacks 2025:
@Chris said in All Blacks 2025:
@canefan said in All Blacks 2025:
@Chris said in All Blacks 2025:
@frugby said in All Blacks 2025:
@Chris said in All Blacks 2025:
@frugby said in All Blacks 2025:
@Chris At least Ioane can tackle. Proctor's defence has been sub-par.
Yeah but first he is not good enough for centre but he's a wing then he doesn't get selected.Now he is the best centre again
A complete mess confusion reigns.I think that was short-sighted. He clearly isn't a winger anymore. I think we all hoped Proctor would be an improvement, but he has failed to replicate the form he showed in Super Rugby having had a reasonable chance.
It has been far from smooth sailing inside him, but he hasn't shown an ounce of anything to suggest he is better than Rieko.
I think ideally you still want a better distributor at 13... would they be brave enough to consider Ennor for the end of year tour?
Maybe they would, Ennor is a good distributer,But it seems to me they are panicking and will stay with the as they see it, tried and true.
So BB who is a problem will never get moved from First Five.This coming from a man who told us all Proctor was the greatest centre in the world and would fix all our troubles,Only to turn out he is sub standard at test level.
I think you're muddling up the Canes fans.
They are all the same to me.
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@Nepia said in All Blacks 2025:
@Chris said in All Blacks 2025:
@canefan said in All Blacks 2025:
@Chris said in All Blacks 2025:
@frugby said in All Blacks 2025:
@Chris said in All Blacks 2025:
@frugby said in All Blacks 2025:
@Chris At least Ioane can tackle. Proctor's defence has been sub-par.
Yeah but first he is not good enough for centre but he's a wing then he doesn't get selected.Now he is the best centre again
A complete mess confusion reigns.I think that was short-sighted. He clearly isn't a winger anymore. I think we all hoped Proctor would be an improvement, but he has failed to replicate the form he showed in Super Rugby having had a reasonable chance.
It has been far from smooth sailing inside him, but he hasn't shown an ounce of anything to suggest he is better than Rieko.
I think ideally you still want a better distributor at 13... would they be brave enough to consider Ennor for the end of year tour?
Maybe they would, Ennor is a good distributer,But it seems to me they are panicking and will stay with the as they see it, tried and true.
So BB who is a problem will never get moved from First Five.This coming from a man who told us all Proctor was the greatest centre in the world and would fix all our troubles,Only to turn out he is sub standard at test level.
I think you're muddling up the Canes fans.
They are all the same to me.
@Chris said in All Blacks 2025:
@Nepia said in All Blacks 2025:
@Chris said in All Blacks 2025:
@canefan said in All Blacks 2025:
@Chris said in All Blacks 2025:
@frugby said in All Blacks 2025:
@Chris said in All Blacks 2025:
@frugby said in All Blacks 2025:
@Chris At least Ioane can tackle. Proctor's defence has been sub-par.
Yeah but first he is not good enough for centre but he's a wing then he doesn't get selected.Now he is the best centre again
A complete mess confusion reigns.I think that was short-sighted. He clearly isn't a winger anymore. I think we all hoped Proctor would be an improvement, but he has failed to replicate the form he showed in Super Rugby having had a reasonable chance.
It has been far from smooth sailing inside him, but he hasn't shown an ounce of anything to suggest he is better than Rieko.
I think ideally you still want a better distributor at 13... would they be brave enough to consider Ennor for the end of year tour?
Maybe they would, Ennor is a good distributer,But it seems to me they are panicking and will stay with the as they see it, tried and true.
So BB who is a problem will never get moved from First Five.This coming from a man who told us all Proctor was the greatest centre in the world and would fix all our troubles,Only to turn out he is sub standard at test level.
I think you're muddling up the Canes fans.
They are all the same to me.
I understand, like you Cantabs for me.
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By the sound of the backline selection if its true,We are back to a complete disfuctioning backline who may well get taught a big lesson from the Aussie backline.
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@Chris we deserve too. Dropping Carter after one game is ridiculous, was arguably our best back against the Boks.
@upthelanders said in All Blacks 2025:
@Chris we deserve too. Dropping Carter after one game is ridiculous, was arguably our best back against the Boks.
Yeah. Definitely deserves a second crack imo.. He didn't get all that much ball but when he got it he looked dangerous - had that play in the first half where he came off his left foot a couple of times and made some nice metres.
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@frugby said in All Blacks 2025:
@Chris said in All Blacks 2025:
@frugby said in All Blacks 2025:
@Chris At least Ioane can tackle. Proctor's defence has been sub-par.
Yeah but first he is not good enough for centre but he's a wing then he doesn't get selected.Now he is the best centre again
A complete mess confusion reigns.I think that was short-sighted. He clearly isn't a winger anymore. I think we all hoped Proctor would be an improvement, but he has failed to replicate the form he showed in Super Rugby having had a reasonable chance.
It has been far from smooth sailing inside him, but he hasn't shown an ounce of anything to suggest he is better than Rieko.
I think ideally you still want a better distributor at 13... would they be brave enough to consider Ennor for the end of year tour?
Maybe they would, Ennor is a good distributer,But it seems to me they are panicking and will stay with the as they see it, tried and true.
So BB who is a problem will never get moved from First Five. -
@Chris said in All Blacks 2025:
So BB who is a problem will never get moved from First Five.
Isn't this the biggest problem for the dysfunction of the backline? Jordie is a very limited 12 too as far as distribution goes.
@Bovidae said in All Blacks 2025:
@Chris said in All Blacks 2025:
So BB who is a problem will never get moved from First Five.
Isn't this the biggest problem for the dysfunction of the backline? Jordie is a very limited 12 too as far as distribution goes.
Yes a massive problem it breaks down around BB mostly.
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By the sound of the backline selection if its true,We are back to a complete disfuctioning backline who may well get taught a big lesson from the Aussie backline.
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@Chris said in All Blacks 2025:
By the sound of the backline selection if its true,We are back to a complete disfuctioning backline who may well get taught a big lesson from the Aussie backline.
Back to? As if we ever left
@KiwiMurph said in All Blacks 2025:
@Chris said in All Blacks 2025:
By the sound of the backline selection if its true,We are back to a complete disfuctioning backline who may well get taught a big lesson from the Aussie backline.
Back to? As if we ever left
What I said back to meaning, same as the last tests .
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@reprobate said in All Blacks 2025:
If he's not good enough and our results are shit, I'm all for sacking him - I can't understand some of his selections, his tactics, half the sentences that come out of his mouth are nonsense or contradictory - but I don't want to see his failures being put down to some arbitrary missing requirement for international experience, whatever that means, which can then be used to rule out our next good candidate.
Don't agree that it is an arbitrary requirement. The consistent narrative is that Test rugby is quite different to Super. Skillsets are different, the game is different, the prep is different, the squads are different. Hell, you're on the road continuously even in your own country.
The question is whether the coaching team has enough knowledge and experience to understand what is needed and respond. Same question as the players - and one of the reasons RMo struggled; Tests are faster, with bigger faster players and fewer mismatches, along with better defensive systems. Shining in Super is not an automatic tick for shining at Test level.
@nzzp said in All Blacks 2025:
@reprobate said in All Blacks 2025:
If he's not good enough and our results are shit, I'm all for sacking him - I can't understand some of his selections, his tactics, half the sentences that come out of his mouth are nonsense or contradictory - but I don't want to see his failures being put down to some arbitrary missing requirement for international experience, whatever that means, which can then be used to rule out our next good candidate.
Don't agree that it is an arbitrary requirement. The consistent narrative is that Test rugby is quite different to Super. Skillsets are different, the game is different, the prep is different, the squads are different. Hell, you're on the road continuously even in your own country.
The question is whether the coaching team has enough knowledge and experience to understand what is needed and respond. Same question as the players - and one of the reasons RMo struggled; Tests are faster, with bigger faster players and fewer mismatches, along with better defensive systems. Shining in Super is not an automatic tick for shining at Test level.
Razor's lack of international experience is only part of a wider problem across the coaching group - i.e. that he has loaded up the coaching group with his mates who also have no international experience (Ryan aside, obviously). In that scenario, you're really leaning heavily on the players who have international experience to provide a lot of the stuff that only that experience can bring. Hence, the conservative selections and the over reliance on two particularly problematic players in the 7 and 10 jerseys.
Edit: And when you couple the above with the general ethos of player empowerment, it does make you wonder whether Razor and his coaching group have put too much faith in the players. Player empowerment is obviously required to a certain extent to get buy-in, but literally handing players the team only works when you've got all-time greats like McCaw, Carter, Whitelock, etc. - it's likely to be a dismal failure when your most trusted players are brainless idiots like the Barretts and Savea.
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@nzzp said in All Blacks 2025:
@reprobate said in All Blacks 2025:
If he's not good enough and our results are shit, I'm all for sacking him - I can't understand some of his selections, his tactics, half the sentences that come out of his mouth are nonsense or contradictory - but I don't want to see his failures being put down to some arbitrary missing requirement for international experience, whatever that means, which can then be used to rule out our next good candidate.
Don't agree that it is an arbitrary requirement. The consistent narrative is that Test rugby is quite different to Super. Skillsets are different, the game is different, the prep is different, the squads are different. Hell, you're on the road continuously even in your own country.
The question is whether the coaching team has enough knowledge and experience to understand what is needed and respond. Same question as the players - and one of the reasons RMo struggled; Tests are faster, with bigger faster players and fewer mismatches, along with better defensive systems. Shining in Super is not an automatic tick for shining at Test level.
Razor's lack of international experience is only part of a wider problem across the coaching group - i.e. that he has loaded up the coaching group with his mates who also have no international experience (Ryan aside, obviously). In that scenario, you're really leaning heavily on the players who have international experience to provide a lot of the stuff that only that experience can bring. Hence, the conservative selections and the over reliance on two particularly problematic players in the 7 and 10 jerseys.
Edit: And when you couple the above with the general ethos of player empowerment, it does make you wonder whether Razor and his coaching group have put too much faith in the players. Player empowerment is obviously required to a certain extent to get buy-in, but literally handing players the team only works when you've got all-time greats like McCaw, Carter, Whitelock, etc. - it's likely to be a dismal failure when your most trusted players are brainless idiots like the Barretts and Savea.
@junior said in All Blacks 2025:
@nzzp said in All Blacks 2025:
@reprobate said in All Blacks 2025:
If he's not good enough and our results are shit, I'm all for sacking him - I can't understand some of his selections, his tactics, half the sentences that come out of his mouth are nonsense or contradictory - but I don't want to see his failures being put down to some arbitrary missing requirement for international experience, whatever that means, which can then be used to rule out our next good candidate.
Don't agree that it is an arbitrary requirement. The consistent narrative is that Test rugby is quite different to Super. Skillsets are different, the game is different, the prep is different, the squads are different. Hell, you're on the road continuously even in your own country.
The question is whether the coaching team has enough knowledge and experience to understand what is needed and respond. Same question as the players - and one of the reasons RMo struggled; Tests are faster, with bigger faster players and fewer mismatches, along with better defensive systems. Shining in Super is not an automatic tick for shining at Test level.
Razor's lack of international experience is only part of a wider problem across the coaching group - i.e. that he has loaded up the coaching group with his mates who also have no international experience (Ryan aside, obviously). In that scenario, you're really leaning heavily on the players who have international experience to provide a lot of the stuff that only that experience can bring. Hence, the conservative selections and the over reliance on two particularly problematic players in the 7 and 10 jerseys.
Edit: And when you couple the above with the general ethos of player empowerment, it does make you wonder whether Razor and his coaching group have put too much faith in the players. Player empowerment is obviously required to a certain extent to get buy-in, but literally handing players the team only works when you've got all-time greats like McCaw, Carter, Whitelock, etc. - it's likely to be a dismal failure when your most trusted players are brainless idiots like the Barretts and Savea.
Just FYI, Scott Hansen was an assistant coach to Japan under Jamie Joseph for 3 years.
