All Blacks v Argentina I
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Finally got to finish a replay. From what i read/heard i was expecting far worse.
I thought the first half was pretty bloody good, and the last quarter to take back momentum even better. I saw some real intent with linespeed, albeit disjointed at times which might come back to bite us.
The 6 lowest numbers on the team sheet were fucking excellent. Good set piece, robust around the track. They are setting a great platform that, even if it was a bit messy, we took advantage of. That was a lot of points in the first half of an away game.
Everything went completely to shit after half time and 12 months ago we probably lose that, but Sami and Patty T add so much off the bench, and the smart decision was made to ignore the big numbers and play tight. Crushed the last of the life out of them.Happy to see the skipper justify the faith in him with a big first half. Newell played maybe his best test? How did Vaai suddenly become our most mobile and busiest loose forward?
Out the back Will Jordan is a weapon.A few brickbats if i may.
The 7 and 8 selected is not working. Kirifi puts himself about but he isn't good enough to really impact the game on either side of the ball or at the breakdown. This was not a good Savea test. Do you even have shoulders fluffybunny? One try was him trying to scrag rather than putting in a shoulder. I saw one at fucking pillar where he did the same thing on a P&G and he let the guy make metres. THe less said about that enormous hole he left in midfield the better. Yeah he pumps his legs well hard and it looks cool, but you're playing #8, get harder.I need someone, anyone, to tell me why BB is an automatic selection at 10. How many absolutely shit house kicks did he put in, often under no fucking pressure whatsoever? The backline is completely dysfunctional, so it's not that either. DMac is not prefect, but at least his passing game puts guys in holes, or gives them opportunities to get outside blokes.
The complete mess outside of him i am willing to forgive because he is serving up shit week after week.
11, 13 and 14 are redundant with what ever we are doing at the moment.
I get Christy being on the bench because we are out of halfbacks, but, even as one of his biggest fans, ALB has surely done his dash.A good win that we made much harder on ourselves than it should have been because a few favoured sons are letting the side down.
@mariner4life said in All Blacks v Argentina I:
Finally got to finish a replay. From what i read/heard i was expecting far worse.
It's always worse in real time. For a good 10mins in the second half I thought "ffs, here we go again".
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A good Test to watch. Can’t say I’ve read everything in the thread but Proctor seemed to pop up quite a few times when skimming through so thought it would it be interesting to focus my rewatch on his game.
So why Billy Proctor?
While I think Proctor has an underrated attacking game (SRP: 43% tackle evasion, which makes him one slippery customer), it seems to me that his selection at outside centre is mostly based around his defence. And yes, I understand that’s a strange point to make when his most notable moment in the past 4 Tests was his miss on Attissogbé in the first French game in Dunedin. But what I mean is that I believe the selectors value his defensive style of play.One very noticeable aspect of this AB season is that the team is increasingly successful in its implementation of defensive line speed. They already tried to introduce more defensive pressure in 2024, but this was often met with very mixed results (see the Wellington Argentina Test, for example). While the defence is by no means perfect, at least the players are showing an increased understanding of their roles and responsibilities on the field.
One of these principles is that the ABs work with a split midfield in defensive multiphase. After defending the first phase of a set piece strike together, the midfielders would each move to one side of the field. There, they have the task of organizing and bringing defensive line speed, each midfielder connecting with their outside winger in order to shut down backdoor plays or sweeping moves.
It is in this regard that someone like Proctor becomes valuable. Proctor excels in reading backdoor plays and is consistently able to shut these plays down, catching opponents on the backfoot and creating potential turnovers. In Super Rugby Pacific, he had one of the highest rates of dominant tackles across the competition (14.9%), reflecting his proficiency in catching ball carriers behind the gain line.
Against Argentina
In the weekend’s Test match against Argentina, Proctor gave plenty of examples why he is selected to perform this task. Argentina have an excellent attacking shape, using similar diamond pods and first five looping plays made famous at Leinster, courtesy of Contepomi’s Dublin connection. Early in the match, Proctor had a chance to show his abilities, after Jordie Barrett kicked long from his own 22, leading to an Argentina attack from kick return.With Argentina setting up a midfield ruck and with plenty of numbers to the openside, Proctor has as his job to bring line speed in order to either deter the wide attack or reach man and ball at the same time, if they do decide to go there.
In the next phase, Albornoz goes flat to Oviedo who is immediately wrapped up by Proctor, driven back in the tackle and subsequently driven off the ball, after the AB 13 quickly got back to his feet to initiate the counter-ruck alongside Rieko Ioane.
This is why the Hurricanes centre is in the AB midfield: organize the defence, initiate line speed, connect with the outside backs and pressure the opposition recycle behind the gain line. The ABs win the penalty and march deep inside the Argentina 22.
Twenty minutes later, Proctor and Ioane would repeat their double act, this time reading the play well from an Argentina scrum attack, Chocobares throwing the backdoor to Albornoz who quickly tried to transfer Delguy.
First, Proctor is nearly able to grab man and ball again but Ioane is on hand to finish the defensive stop comprehensively. The ABs are unlucky that Ioane is pinged for a tackle without the ball – despite Delguy first having the ball, making him a legitimate target – otherwise it would’ve been another defensive win.
So why not Billy Proctor?
So far, so good, I’d say. Proctor is a centre who works well in Tamati Ellison’s defensive system, with the potential to eventually come alive on attack as well. Then again, there are a few reasons to be critical of Proctor, some of them systems-related, others from a purely individual perspective.Looking back at the split midfield defensive set-up, it’s clear it works well in shutting down outside threats (if your midfielders are able to read the play well, that is). But like any system, it often just means that you’re relocating your vulnerabilities. In this case, the seam between each midfielder and their inside forwards is often ripe for the picking.
For an example, we can turn to the 49th minute. Argentina has a lineout attack inside the AB half. After first defending together for the initial move, Jordie and Proctor quickly split, Barrett moving to the right hand side, with Proctor on the left. With Barrett now moving to the right wing in order to organize line speed there, it leaves Ardie defending in the midfield, inside Proctor.
With Argentina mostly shut out in the first half, they’ve clearly discussed other possibilities during halftime, the space such as that between Savea and Proctor here a likely topic of discussionUsing this system asks a lot of forwards like Savea who suddenly has a critical role in midfield defence. It becomes apparent pretty quickly that this responsibility – shooting up to close the space and quickly retreating to get back onside – isn’t a particular strong suit of the number 8, first being slow to connect in the advance, then being behind in getting back onside.
https://media2.giphy.com/media/v1.Y2lkPTc5MGI3NjExOXhvcGk2NncxOXI0ajk5Z3BxMnNpaXBqM3E3enI1aXMza2Q4Z24waCZlcD12MV9pbnRlcm5hbF9naWZfYnlfaWQmY3Q9Zw/fVSQehEBPfeRFjD3Ln/giphy.gif
Watch Ardie in the midfield, creating a fracture in the defensive lineIn the very next phase, Albornoz would easily exploit this disconnect, floating a ball between Savea and Proctor for Oviedo to run hard onto, splitting them open for the important line break.
While it’s hard to lay the blame at someone’s feet without hearing what’s being said on the field, you’d think this is most likely a comms issue. Here, Proctor’s inexperience likely works against him. Still, he needs to coach Savea to be aware of the different threats and connect properly with his insides and outsides.
A second critical note can be boiled down to purely athletic factors. While Proctor clearly has a good head on his shoulders, his execution can at times be found wanting. For example, in the 12th minute, Proctor again correctly reads the Argentina attacking play but allows Cinti to step out of the tackle.
While it doesn’t lead to a particularly bad territory loss, these kinds of tackles need to be made, since there won’t always be a proper defensive scramble available. It’s something that Jordie Barrett unfortunately had to find out the hard way for the Albornoz try early in the 2nd half.
And while I like the fact that Robertson seems more inclined to select glue players in glue positions, in recent years the All Blacks have escaped with wins they shouldn’t have, simply because they had more talented players across the park than the other team (I like to call it the ‘Beauden Barrett special’). With Proctor, you lose that particular gambit. Provide him with terrible ball, he will just get turned over.
A player like Leicester Fainga’anuku won’t provide you with the same defensive reads as Proctor (76.6% tackle completion at Toulon, with only 5.6% of those dominant) but in these kinds of situations, it wouldn’t surprise you to see the former make something out of nothing, whether through an offload or by simply bulldozing through contact. So far at least, the coaches seem quite firm in the decision they’ve made for the kind of player they want at 13.
Summary
So far, Billy Proctor seems to be mostly doing what I believe he’s being selected for: he’s organizing and bringing line speed from outside in, he’s connecting well with his outsides (whether it’s Ioane or Reece) and he’s tackling at a high rate of dominance (18% across his 3 Tests in 2025, which is comparable to England’s Henry Slade during the 2025 Six Nations). The line speed defence is also running increasingly smoothly but as all systems are apt to, is showing frailties in other areas.So is Proctor showing enough at 13? Lienert-Brown did well in the third Test against France (20% tackle dominance and a well-taken try) but his continuous ill-discipline (4 penalties and a yellow card in less than 80 minutes played total) makes him a hard case to argue for. Fainga’anuku, with his utility value as being able to play midfield, wing and loose forward, seems like an ideal bench player while others, like AJ Lam, might find it difficult to gain selection, with an already congested squad.
Proctor’s objectives, on the other hand, seem relatively clearcut: make sure to finish your defensive reads and start finding ways to contribute more on attack, for example, by working harder to stay alive in contact . But if his development at Super Rugby is any indication, then there’s reason to think that it should only be a matter of time.
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@Mauss said in All Blacks v Argentina I:
With Proctor, you lose that particular gambit. Provide him with terrible ball, he will just get turned over.
fuck i have just paid attention to this little piece of vision. It's used to give Proctor a whack but two Barrett's look infinitely worse.
Firstly BB compounds an error by chucking a pass to a guy now 15m behind the gain line, and more importantly, no one behind him. If he holds that then maybe Jordie secures the ball over him. Although JBarrett then stands there and watches Proctor get smoked and shows no urgency to go help.
Who is the loose forward with the shit first clean as well?@mariner4life said in All Blacks v Argentina I:
Who is the loose forward with the shit first clean as well?
That was Ardie.
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@mariner4life said in All Blacks v Argentina I:
Who is the loose forward with the shit first clean as well?
That was Ardie.
@Mauss said in All Blacks v Argentina I:
@mariner4life said in All Blacks v Argentina I:
Who is the loose forward with the shit first clean as well?
That was Ardie.
colour me shocked
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@Mauss said in All Blacks v Argentina I:
he’s connecting well with his outsides (whether it’s Ioane
Can you show us with one of your vids when this happened? I'm not discounting it, just can't remember RI getting any good connecting ball.
@Nepia said in All Blacks v Argentina I:
Can you show us with one of your vids when this happened? I'm not discounting it, just can't remember RI getting any good connecting ball.
That was a bit unclear of me, perhaps. I was only referring to defensive connection, as in how they came up together and marked their targets (some other examples of the defensive connection between Proctor and Reece can be found in the 5th and 13th minute).
As far as attack was concerned, he threw a decent, if very basic pass to Reece for an early outside break in the first half, and he himself made a half-break with a slippery carry (I think early in the 2nd half?) but other than that, his attacking contribution was limited.
At the moment, Jordie is mainly used as the distributor in midfield, with Proctor acting more as a kind of Swiss Army knife-type support player.
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Why is there such an aversion to start DMac at 10. Last year he didn't get much of a chance. Hope he gets a chance soon
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Why is there such an aversion to start DMac at 10. Last year he didn't get much of a chance. Hope he gets a chance soon
@BerniesCorner said in All Blacks v Argentina I:
Why is there such an aversion to start DMac at 10. Last year he didn't get much of a chance. Hope he gets a chance soon
He started 10 tests last year he only did not start in the other 4.
He had plenty of chances. -
@BerniesCorner said in All Blacks v Argentina I:
Why is there such an aversion to start DMac at 10. Last year he didn't get much of a chance. Hope he gets a chance soon
He started 10 tests last year he only did not start in the other 4.
He had plenty of chances.@Chris said in All Blacks v Argentina I:
@BerniesCorner said in All Blacks v Argentina I:
Why is there such an aversion to start DMac at 10. Last year he didn't get much of a chance. Hope he gets a chance soon
He started 10 tests last year he only did not start in the other 4.
He had plenty of chances.Was he worse than BB though?
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McKenzie was given a good run of starts and, while things weren’t perfect, it seemed like he was just being given a rest - or Barrett was being given a game to keep up to speed - when they first made the switch. And then it was Barrett right till the end of the year for no obvious reason at all.
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@Chris said in All Blacks v Argentina I:
@BerniesCorner said in All Blacks v Argentina I:
Why is there such an aversion to start DMac at 10. Last year he didn't get much of a chance. Hope he gets a chance soon
He started 10 tests last year he only did not start in the other 4.
He had plenty of chances.Was he worse than BB though?
@canefan said in All Blacks v Argentina I:
@Chris said in All Blacks v Argentina I:
@BerniesCorner said in All Blacks v Argentina I:
Why is there such an aversion to start DMac at 10. Last year he didn't get much of a chance. Hope he gets a chance soon
He started 10 tests last year he only did not start in the other 4.
He had plenty of chances.Was he worse than BB though?
No he wasn't but he had chances not didn't get much of a chance last year.
BB has been shit and is a problem. -
@canefan said in All Blacks v Argentina I:
@Chris said in All Blacks v Argentina I:
@BerniesCorner said in All Blacks v Argentina I:
Why is there such an aversion to start DMac at 10. Last year he didn't get much of a chance. Hope he gets a chance soon
He started 10 tests last year he only did not start in the other 4.
He had plenty of chances.Was he worse than BB though?
No he wasn't but he had chances not didn't get much of a chance last year.
BB has been shit and is a problem.@Chris said in All Blacks v Argentina I:
@canefan said in All Blacks v Argentina I:
@Chris said in All Blacks v Argentina I:
@BerniesCorner said in All Blacks v Argentina I:
Why is there such an aversion to start DMac at 10. Last year he didn't get much of a chance. Hope he gets a chance soon
He started 10 tests last year he only did not start in the other 4.
He had plenty of chances.Was he worse than BB though?
No he wasn't but he had chances not didn't get much of a chance last year.
BB has been shit and is a problem.Razor's reluctance to change Ardie or BB is holding back our development
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@Chris said in All Blacks v Argentina I:
@canefan said in All Blacks v Argentina I:
@Chris said in All Blacks v Argentina I:
@BerniesCorner said in All Blacks v Argentina I:
Why is there such an aversion to start DMac at 10. Last year he didn't get much of a chance. Hope he gets a chance soon
He started 10 tests last year he only did not start in the other 4.
He had plenty of chances.Was he worse than BB though?
No he wasn't but he had chances not didn't get much of a chance last year.
BB has been shit and is a problem.Razor's reluctance to change Ardie or BB is holding back our development
@canefan said in All Blacks v Argentina I:
@Chris said in All Blacks v Argentina I:
@canefan said in All Blacks v Argentina I:
@Chris said in All Blacks v Argentina I:
@BerniesCorner said in All Blacks v Argentina I:
Why is there such an aversion to start DMac at 10. Last year he didn't get much of a chance. Hope he gets a chance soon
He started 10 tests last year he only did not start in the other 4.
He had plenty of chances.Was he worse than BB though?
No he wasn't but he had chances not didn't get much of a chance last year.
BB has been shit and is a problem.Razor's reluctance to change Ardie or BB is holding back out development
Yep agree with that.
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We need to try out Vaai 6, Savea 7, Sititi 8, Ratima , DMac
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I don't know what the source of the problem in our backline is. Holland always ran a very creative backline at the Canes.
@canefan said in All Blacks v Argentina I:
I don't know what the source of the problem in our backline is. Holland always ran a very creative backline at the Canes.
Give me a B…..give me another B!!
Whaddya got??
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@BerniesCorner said in All Blacks v Argentina I:
Why is there such an aversion to start DMac at 10. Last year he didn't get much of a chance. Hope he gets a chance soon
He started 10 tests last year he only did not start in the other 4.
He had plenty of chances.@Chris said in All Blacks v Argentina I:
@BerniesCorner said in All Blacks v Argentina I:
Why is there such an aversion to start DMac at 10. Last year he didn't get much of a chance. Hope he gets a chance soon
He started 10 tests last year he only did not start in the other 4.
He had plenty of chances.And the backline was much much better wirh DMaC at 10.
The ABs were also playing helter skelter rugby, at that point. When we would be shattered after 60 minutes.
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@Chris said in All Blacks v Argentina I:
@BerniesCorner said in All Blacks v Argentina I:
Why is there such an aversion to start DMac at 10. Last year he didn't get much of a chance. Hope he gets a chance soon
He started 10 tests last year he only did not start in the other 4.
He had plenty of chances.And the backline was much much better wirh DMaC at 10.
The ABs were also playing helter skelter rugby, at that point. When we would be shattered after 60 minutes.
@DaGrubster said in All Blacks v Argentina I:
@Chris said in All Blacks v Argentina I:
@BerniesCorner said in All Blacks v Argentina I:
Why is there such an aversion to start DMac at 10. Last year he didn't get much of a chance. Hope he gets a chance soon
He started 10 tests last year he only did not start in the other 4.
He had plenty of chances.And the backline was much much better wirh DMaC at 10.
The ABs were also playing helter skelter rugby, at that point. When we would be shattered after 60 minutes.
not my point I was referring to the post he didn't get many chances last year.
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@DaGrubster said in All Blacks v Argentina I:
@Chris said in All Blacks v Argentina I:
@BerniesCorner said in All Blacks v Argentina I:
Why is there such an aversion to start DMac at 10. Last year he didn't get much of a chance. Hope he gets a chance soon
He started 10 tests last year he only did not start in the other 4.
He had plenty of chances.And the backline was much much better wirh DMaC at 10.
The ABs were also playing helter skelter rugby, at that point. When we would be shattered after 60 minutes.
not my point I was referring to the post he didn't get many chances last year.
@Chris said in All Blacks v Argentina I:
@DaGrubster said in All Blacks v Argentina I:
@Chris said in All Blacks v Argentina I:
@BerniesCorner said in All Blacks v Argentina I:
Why is there such an aversion to start DMac at 10. Last year he didn't get much of a chance. Hope he gets a chance soon
He started 10 tests last year he only did not start in the other 4.
He had plenty of chances.And the backline was much much better wirh DMaC at 10.
The ABs were also playing helter skelter rugby, at that point. When we would be shattered after 60 minutes.
not my point I was referring to the post he didn't get many chances last year.
Yeah i know. I was adding to that in those starts, the backline was much better than under Bb
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@Chris said in All Blacks v Argentina I:
@DaGrubster said in All Blacks v Argentina I:
@Chris said in All Blacks v Argentina I:
@BerniesCorner said in All Blacks v Argentina I:
Why is there such an aversion to start DMac at 10. Last year he didn't get much of a chance. Hope he gets a chance soon
He started 10 tests last year he only did not start in the other 4.
He had plenty of chances.And the backline was much much better wirh DMaC at 10.
The ABs were also playing helter skelter rugby, at that point. When we would be shattered after 60 minutes.
not my point I was referring to the post he didn't get many chances last year.
Yeah i know. I was adding to that in those starts, the backline was much better than under Bb
@DaGrubster said in All Blacks v Argentina I:
@Chris said in All Blacks v Argentina I:
@DaGrubster said in All Blacks v Argentina I:
@Chris said in All Blacks v Argentina I:
@BerniesCorner said in All Blacks v Argentina I:
Why is there such an aversion to start DMac at 10. Last year he didn't get much of a chance. Hope he gets a chance soon
He started 10 tests last year he only did not start in the other 4.
He had plenty of chances.And the backline was much much better wirh DMaC at 10.
The ABs were also playing helter skelter rugby, at that point. When we would be shattered after 60 minutes.
not my point I was referring to the post he didn't get many chances last year.
Yeah i know. I was adding to that in those starts, the backline was much better than under Bb
I can't argue with that point it was better.
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I think these days BB should be on the bench. He can cover 10, 13, 15, wing and do a good job.
An absolute legend in his time and a great AB.
An eye for a gap combined with scintillating speed were his forte.
Controlling play from first five wasn't a strength.
DMac played well last year but hasn't been persisted with. When RM was in NZ I thought DMac still edged it for the premier NZ 10 position.
Currently we have an aging flyhalf whose best position wasn't 10 and RM returning in a years time and who is not clearly better than DMac
